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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 21:31 |
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| Yes Dr. Marshall, but they seem to be too "lively" to be part of brownian motion. The polymorphism (as the rod forms a round body and then it divides in three parts) in the end of the video looks kind of astonishing to me. Do you think its a fake? Last edited on Wed Jul 16th, 2008 21:49 by dymi
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jul 16th, 2008 21:54 |
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Stop focusing on the wrong things. This is what has distracted Medicine from the real answer for a Century. I said that these artifacts are not what are making you ill. That statement is based on understanding the Molecular Biology behind disease. Start thinking about the Molecular Science, not looking at things where you can't even begin to understand the conceptual complexity.
The key is how the pathogens evade the innate immune system. This researcher does not even begin to contemplate that issue.
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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 13:48 |
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You know, I am an aeronautic engineer. I like to watch thigs that move and analyse why :o) I see that there are litle tiny particles that seem to organize themselves in the blood plasma, I have difficulties to get convinced that they are just fragments or some debris from cell apoptosis. I have seen the long biofilms in the Andy Wrigt video and it seems they contain also these at some locations. In fact if you look closer, the particles seem to have a little flagella that propels them. You really don't think that that are some kind of bacterial speacies (mycoplasma etc.)? Did somebody study these under the electron microscope? (probably difficult task).
And your opinion on R.Rife? To me it very corelates with your research. Just people call it differenet names.
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 14:27 |
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I never said that these artifacts were not bacteria, fungi, or other pathogens. I said that these were not what is making you ill. It is the Molecular Biology which tells us that. Please be careful that you read precisely what I am saying.
As for electron microscopy, please look carefully at my presentation at UCLA a couple of weeks ago: http://www.vimeo.com/1270611
And please read our FAQ on Co-infections.
ps: Rife technology does not destroy the intraphagocytic metagenomic microbiota which causes Th1 disease.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 14:43 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 14:47 |
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I know thanks to MP that Emil Wirostko made wonderfull images of the CWD inside the white blood cells. I ment if you heard about somebody who tried to study at higher resolutions the singe particles (or whatewer it is) that are moving freely in the plasma visibly under dark field. They must have something around 200-300nm if the red blood cell has 7.5 microns.
Your presentation is impressive....
To the prostatic hip joint and heat vent bacteria. :o) I would think that some of the bacteria get there as the contamination of the implant. Maybe it would not be present in person without implant.
Last edited on Thu Jul 17th, 2008 14:50 by dymi
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Thu Jul 17th, 2008 15:29 |
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Contamination? ROFLMAO
Let's have no more of this nonsense Dymi, my patience is exhausted.
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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 12:06 |
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I did not mean it the way it was formulated. English is tricky for not native speaker. I just wanted to point out that if the person did not have the METAL implant, maybe this type of bacteria would not have the neccecary conditions for their survival.
http://www.divediscover.whoi.edu/hottopics/bacteria.html
"Many thermophiles have a simple diet, based solely on the metals, gases and minerals that comprise the hydrothermal vent fluid. For example, on Knorr we are growing thermophiles collected from vent sites in the Indian Ocean that require only sulfur, hydrogen and carbon dioxide."
I agree contamination is not the correct term, and I did not inted to upset you.
Best,
Petr
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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MarkN
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Jul 18th, 2008 20:33 |
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Petr,
The bacteria that have adapted to live in hot springs (thermophiles) are completely different from the bugs that are making us sick. They probably couldn't even survive inside our bodies. The study on the prosthetic hip joint really does show us what kind of bugs are living inside the body.
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General insanity (Aspergers ??), CFS, some joint paint ...
11/06:1,25D=37 25D=43, 3/08:25D<7 ... Avoid D 12/06 ... PhaseOne 1/07, PhaseTwo 3/07, PhaseThree 9/07
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dymi
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 12:02 |
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I will have to read the full article that Dr. Marshall refferences. In his video of the presentation there is among the others:
hydrothermal vent eubacterium
look at:
http://www.palaeos.com/Kingdoms/Prokaryotes/Thermotogales.htm
http://www.palaeos.com/Kingdoms/Prokaryotes/Eubacteria.htm
Eubacterium is a large bacterial family but the hydrothermal is rather small subgroup of bacteria that lives in the hot water. It uses some metals for its metabolism, sulphur etc... My point was only to question if the fact that we add a foreign metallic object to the human body could not make the human environment more suitable for some atypical bacterial species. What would be interesting to explore is the original damaged joint (that was replaced by the implant), make DNA research there, and then after 10-15 years of service to repeat on the degraded implant of the same patient. Kind of diffcult long term follow up study (doctors don't have patience to do things like this ...too much egineering approach;-).
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 14:25 by dymi
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Lyme neuro joint/neck pain 125D62 Ph1Jan08 no non-MP meds 25D13(Apr08) NoIRs covered up outside low lux
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 15:13 |
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OK Dymi, enough, already.
Your point about the presence of metal was quite clear the first time you made it, and you are trying my patience with this repetition. As it says in your citation "The Thermotogales make their living by scavenging biomolecules, including amino acids, glucose, sucrose, starch, cellulose, and xylan."
Please do not try to ponder the science until you get to to the stage in your recovery where you can do it without fixating on this or the other individual concept. Your idea is a good one, but is nowhere near the complete picture. Meanwhile It has little to do with the topic, which is "How do bacteria change to the L-form"
Please do not reply to this. I want to get this thread back onto topic. Here we are talking about a metagenomic microbiota, and how bacteria change to and from the L-form (in that microbiota) and the more studied walled forms.
Last edited on Mon Jul 21st, 2008 15:24 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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NorCalJim
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Jul 21st, 2008 20:30 |
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I understand that the microbiota have been observed by a few researchers inside the cells and as the escaping biofilm tubules. Is there any possibility to do a before and after the MP series of photos or videos of them?
Thanks,
NorCalJim
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Ankylosing spondylitis Ph1Mar07 Ph2Jun07 Ph3Nov07, no other meds or supps 25D18 (May07) 25D16 (Feb08) 25D16 (Jun09) NoIRs in/out cover up out
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 00:43 |
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NorCalJim,
None of our cohort had "before" images taken, and those patients who supplied the blood to Dr Andy Wright have not recovered, they have not been on the MP.
The bigger problem is that this microbiota exists in healthy people, too. Inter alia, it determines the diseases of aging. Everybody has them, only the metagenome differs (the species present). So there really is no 'control'.
One of our members microscoped the blood of the members of his son's soccer team. He found the microbiota in all but one of the kids. Does that help you understand the magnitude of the conceptual difficulty if one were to use the presence of this microbiota as evidence of disease? Everybody has them, it is just that Medicine hasn't really noticed them before...
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Rico
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 01:52 |
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It's incredible that medicine hasn't yet noticed the intracellular pathogens.
Trevor, is it the volume of microbiota that end up making people sick in the end? Sounds like Vitamin D didn't come first, then (chicken and the egg) - Vitamin D is one of the factors contributing to an increase in chronic illness but sounds like the pathogens will do us in eventually anyway since we all have them.
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No diagnosis/some symptoms; wife with Sarc on MP; Olm 40mg q6h| avoid D| 1,25D=63 25D=32 (May 2006) 1,25D=44; 25D=10(Dec 2006)PhaseI(May06) PhaseII(Aug06) PhaseIII(Aug07)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 02:35 |
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Both the volume and the specific genes affected by the microbiota contribute to disease and aging. History shows that the pathogens will 'do us in' anyway. The key issue is that eradication of the key infectious diseases with the advent of antibiotics in the mid 20th century ought to have increased longevity more than it did. Both the overuse of beta-lactams and Vitamin D contribute to this. Possibly also a sun-loving lifestyle (bikinis, big windows, convertibles)
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jrfoutin
Research Team
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| Location: | Oregon USA |
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 07:36 |
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A speculative "why do all roads lead to Rome?" evolution advantage question for bacteria that change to the L-form, rather than a "how is it done?" question:
Has the pathogen/L-form change sequence evolved enough to have a distinct advantage in host death (dominant species or subspecies or community life cycle changes have an evolutionary advantage)?
Or would host death be just an unfortunate currently adverse relic during the community of pathogens (pea soup) or dominant species bacteria to L-form life cycles?
I will understand if "why" is is too far off topic from "how".
Thank you, always.
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Sarcoidosis 125D61, MP10/05 ModP2 12/05 Ph2 6/06 Ph3 10/06, NoIRs limited outings covered, 2/08 25D6.2, 10/08 25D6.9
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 10:52 |
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Let's see. Let me answer this in allegory. The species Bacillus anthracis (anthrax) is found in dry soil just about everywhere. It is, of course, in its L-form. It becomes harmful if enough of it collects in the lungs to turn into an acute pathogen.
Clearly any L-form which can live in dry soil has an evolutionary advantage over us human beenz And most of them can
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Veronika
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 16:06 |
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| Dr. Marshall, Is the genetic information (DNA, RNA) of the L-form completely identical to the one of cell walled form of the same species? Or are there some differences? How can the size of the L-form so much differ? (10x-100x smaller) Can we even call it same species? Thx.
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Celiac dissease, 11/07: 1,25D=44 25D=54, 12/08: 25D=26, Ph1Jan08, Ph2May08, Ph3Dec08 NoIRs, limited outings covered
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Veronika
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 16:11 |
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: Let's see. Let me answer this in allegory. The species Bacillus anthracis (anthrax) is found in dry soil just about everywhere. It is, of course, in its L-form. It becomes harmful if enough of it collects in the lungs to turn into an acute pathogen.
One Q more: Does it mean that the so called "spores" (Anthrax, Mycobacterium) are in fact L-form of the bacteria???
V.
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Celiac dissease, 11/07: 1,25D=44 25D=54, 12/08: 25D=26, Ph1Jan08, Ph2May08, Ph3Dec08 NoIRs, limited outings covered
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 16:37 |
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Sporulation (spores) is the term Adam Arkin gave in the video that headed this thread, and yes, it is another name for the L-form, CWD, Pleomorphic, states of bacteria.
In pleomorphs, the expression of genes in the genome into proteins will change depending on available nutrition, harshness of environment, etc.
Last edited on Tue Jul 22nd, 2008 16:38 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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Markt9452
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Jul 24th, 2008 08:36 |
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The species Bacillus anthracis (anthrax) is found in dry soil just about everywhere.
In pleomorphs, the expression of genes in the genome into proteins will change depending on available nutrition, harshness of environment, etc
Persistent Prions: Soilbound agents are more potent"Prions enter the environment from the remains of infected animals, and, to some degree, from body fluids such as urine and saliva. Prions linger in soil for at least 3 years ... by binding tightly to clay and other minerals. Aiken had hypothesized that soil would hinder the action of the clingy prions, making them less infectious. He was surprised to find the opposite.
"The binding of infectious agents in soil actually greatly enhances the infection," Aiken says. "It makes the disease more transmissible."
http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/8743/title/Persistent_Prions_Soilbound_agents_are_more_potent
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