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Exactly how do Bacteria change to the L-form?
 Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall  

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vwmusum
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 Posted: Mon Jan 5th, 2009 17:11

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Hi Dr. Marshall,

I am not sure if you have addressed this somewhere else on the site and I’m not sure how to search it.  A close friend of my was a Captain on the NYC Police Force and was at ground zero shortly after 9-11.  He has since been diagnosed with 'incurable' sarcoidosis (as many other valiant heroes are stricken with too) who and has been forced to retire on permanent disability.  Could the MP work for someone like him?



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Dr Trevor Marshall
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 Posted: Mon Jan 5th, 2009 20:21

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Workers at Ground Zero were working under unhygienic conditions, with bodies and body parts, during the cleanup. The best way to look for disease caused by this microbiota is to measure the D metabolites, along with PTH, CRP and other routine bloodwork.
 

vwmusum
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 Posted: Mon Jan 5th, 2009 20:42

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Excellent Dr. Marshall.  Those were some of my hunches, but there is nothing like getting your authoritative perspective.  I will let him know.  These brave men and women deserve the best information (which you have) possible to help them.



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 Posted: Mon Jan 5th, 2009 23:57

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vwmusum, I don't see why your friend diagnosed with Sarcoidosis couldn't be helped with the MP - there have been many other Sarc patients who have:

Sarcoidosis Succumbs to Antibiotics - Implications for Autoimmune Disease

Antibacterial Therapy Induces Remission in Sarcoidosis

Report on a case of systemic sarcoidosis treated according to the Marshall Protocol - by Japanese Neurologist

Some Sarcoidosis Success Stories at Bacteriality

SARCOIDOSIS



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jcwat101
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 Posted: Tue Jan 6th, 2009 03:10

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Trevor mentioned the routine blood work and included PTH (parathyroid hormone).  I think PTH is good to measure, but think that it is important to make sure one is getting near the RDA of calcium (in divided dosages) for at least a couple weeks before the test to avoid getting an elevated PTH level due to inadequate calcium intake.  And the MP recommendation is that a level of calcium intake near the RDA should generally be maintained after the test.  Of course, if you have had problems with hypercalcemia, consult your doctor before taking any calcium.  Include the amount you get in food when calculating whether you need a supplement.

Avoiding extra phosphate unless you have a known need for it is good (for instance avoid calcium hydroxyapatite supplements or forms from oyster shell that have phosphorus).  This is because too much phosphate in people with suboptimal kidney function may also raise PTH. 

A generally adequate (near RDA) intake of other nutrients that affect bone (eg., near RDA of vitamin K, magnesium, zinc) may be helpful too (should be from food to the extent possible).

For more on calcium and when its supplementation may be needed, see:

Do I need to take a calcium supplement...

Joyce Waterhouse

Last edited on Tue Jan 6th, 2009 04:50 by jcwat101



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NickBowler
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 Posted: Mon Feb 16th, 2009 12:16

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http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126945.400-squid-symbiosis-may-shed-light-on-disease.html
It seems that a critical gene for converting to the biofilm form has been researched in squid bacteria (the link to the nature article is embedded in the above New Scientist article). The authors discuss that biofilm formation may have origins in symbiotic relationships between species.



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jcwat101
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 Posted: Mon Feb 16th, 2009 15:32

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Nick,

That's very interesting. 

Here is something that just came out in Nature- nice to see L-forms getting more attention, especially in a prominent journal.

Life without a wall or division machine in Bacillus subtilis p849
L-form cells can derive from various bacterial species and do not possess a cell wall. It is shown that Bacillus subtilis can convert into L-form through a single point mutation, and that B. subtilus L-form cells are able to propagate independent of FtsZ, an essential component of the bacterial cell division machinery.
M. Leaver et al.


Life without walls : Nature

Joyce Waterhouse



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 Posted: Sat Mar 7th, 2009 10:53

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The outcome of Cryptococcus neoformans intracellular pathogenesis in human monocytes
This study demonstrated that C. neoformans can shed polysaccharide within human monocytes, spread from cell to cell, and be extruded from them. Furthermore, human monocytes responded to ingestion of C. neoformans with cell cycle progression from G1 to S.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2180/9/51

Br

Martin



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Chris
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 Posted: Tue Mar 10th, 2009 00:55

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Excellent Dr. Marshall. Those were some of my hunches, but there is nothing like getting your authoritative perspective. I will let him know. These brave men and women deserve the best information (which you have) possible to help them.

I just noticed this.  If you ever need a first hand story about an MP success, I am available.  

Chris
Raritan, NJ

http://bacteriality.com/2008/06/19/interview22/



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Frans
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 Posted: Sat Aug 29th, 2009 00:50

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Hi all,

Heard something on the radio last week and while looking at the latest metagenome presentation, at the point that prof Bushman explains that bacteria might be penetrating the body through the walls of the GI-tract , it struck me that this next paper (which they described on the radio) might be interesting, since it shows another mechanism by which bacteria, in this case E. Coli, can morph into other shapes, even extremely small shapes, so small that filters with micro pores simply won't stop them.

I was thinking that if bacteria can move through channels that are only something like half a micrometer wide, where else can they move through? Cell walls?

Bacterial growth and motility in sub-micron constrictions.

Männik J, Driessen R, Galajda P, Keymer JE, Dekker C.
Kavli Institute of Nanoscience, Delft University of Technology, Lorentzweg 1, 2628 CJ, Delft, The Netherlands.

In many naturally occurring habitats, bacteria live in micrometer-size confined spaces. Although bacterial growth and motility in such constrictions is of great interest to fields as varied as soil microbiology, water purification, and biomedical research, quantitative studies of the effects of confinement on bacteria have been limited. Here, we establish how Gram-negative Escherichia coli and Gram-positive Bacillus subtilis bacteria can grow, move, and penetrate very narrow constrictions with a size comparable to or even smaller than their diameter. We show that peritrichously flagellated E. coli and B. subtilis are still motile in microfabricated channels where the width of the channel exceeds their diameters only marginally ( approximately 30%). For smaller widths, the motility vanishes but bacteria can still pass through these channels by growth and division. We observe E. coli, but not B. subtilis, to penetrate channels with a width that is smaller than their diameter by a factor of approximately 2. Within these channels, bacteria are considerably squeezed but they still grow and divide. After exiting the channels, E. coli bacteria obtain a variety of anomalous cell shapes. Our results reveal that sub-micron size pores and cavities are unexpectedly prolific bacterial habitats where bacteria exhibit morphological adaptations.

PMID: 19706420 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]


Sounds interesting.

Frans

Last edited on Sat Aug 29th, 2009 00:52 by Frans



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Phillyguy
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 Posted: Wed Sep 16th, 2009 19:40

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Interesting New article on listeria L-forms from Science Daily.  September 12, 2009

"For over 100 years, it was known that bacteria may lose their cell wall and can still survive. However, it was believed that this phenomenon was merely an artefact and that bacteria without cell walls do not remain viable. Recent research of a group headed by ETH Zurich Professor Martin J. Loessner, which has just been published in Molecular Microbiology, shows that bacteria without a cell wall can be a stable form of bacterial life. Astonishingly, not only can Listeria survive without a cell wall, they are even able to reproduce and proliferate."

"“Culturing” the L-forms of bacteria is not easy. They need to be “bred” in a liquid medium and do not normally form colonies, so plating on a petri dish is not possible. Although L-form Listeria cells are capable of reproducing themselves, this can take time: formation of a visible colony within tubes containing a soft medium takes at least six days, compared to 16 to 20 hours for normal cells."

"L-form Listeria can also outwit the immune system. Although macrophages, i.e. phagocytes, ingest the spherules, they seem unable to kill them in a timely fashion. While normal Listeria cells are killed after about 30 minutes, the L-forms can survive for much longer inside a macrophage. The ETH Zurich professor feels that “the immune system may have a problem if macrophages cannot recognise the L-forms as a pathogen.”

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090912145843.htm

 

Interestingly, listeria may have a preference for the gall bladder and kidneys.  I found this interesting since I seem to recall reading that people who suffered acute food poising often develop kidney issues several years later.  I believe that it was attributed to structural damage associated with the acute attack, but this never seemed to make sense to me since the issues only appeared years later.  Gall bladder issues seem pretty prevalent amongst the TH1 folks as well.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/09/090908203427.htm

Last edited on Wed Sep 16th, 2009 19:41 by Phillyguy


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