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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Sun Oct 18th, 2009 19:01 |
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I just stumbled on a book review. What caught my eye was:Did you know that some microbes use sulfur compounds as a food source, leaving hydrogen sulfide – the rotten-egg smelling gas – behind as a waste product?
I recently condemned the concept of testing Hydrogen Sulfide as a specific marker for CFS, based on my memory of old papers describing this phenomena. So I was pleased to see that somebody has gathered all these little bug factoids into a book. Here is the review:
http://www.cosmosmagazine.com/reviews/3039/small-wonders-how-microbes-rule-our-world
..Trevor..
ps: the reason testing for H2S is a bad idea is that it will (almost certainly) be present in Th1 conditions other than CFS. The metagenome is large and diverse 
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Joyful
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Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 04:45 |
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Gotta love the quote in the review...
“Science is a journey, not a destination. Anyone who presents science primarily as an authoritative, well-organised body of established facts is probably trying to sell you something.” --Idan Ben-Barak
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marysue
Moderator
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Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 05:17 |
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It would be interesting to know just how much of a food source sulfur is for "some microbes"; whether these are microbes that we are trying to eliminate and what effect that has on us. Would it be comparable to say...folic acid--and therefore be worth limiting those foods?
I looked over a list of foods that are high in sulfur ("free thiols/sulfur", not elemental sulfur) and many of these foods are ones I've had problems with but didn't know why. They had a list of foods low in sulfur and coincidently, these were mostly foods I am able to tolerate.
Not that we need more foods to avoid.  But, then again, I'm not interested in feeding any unwelcome guests right now.
Marysue
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Thanks Dr. Marshall and staff for all the support!
CFS/FM '95; infert/endomet '02; hypotension; cardiac IP; start light restrict. Oct08; 125D=70 25D=30 (Feb09); Benicar26Apr09; NoIRs, low light, no sun; 25D=10 (Jun09); 25D=5 (Nov09)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 05:44 |
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Folic Acid is already on our list of foods to minimize, as it is an essential part of the nutrition for some families of bacteria (your body needs some folate, but it is added to most bread and flour these days)
In fact the drug Methotrexate, one of the most prescribed drugs for chronic inflammatory conditions, is an antibiotic which knocks-out the Folate metabolism by blocking the bacterial DHFR receptor. However, it also blocks the human DHFR, which is not a good thing at all 
The drug Trimethoprim, one of our Phase 3 antibiotics (Bactrim is a mixture of Sulfamethoxazole and Trimethoprim), also blocks the bacterial DHFR receptor, but does not block the human DHFR receptor. Altogether a better solution A picture of DHFR from E.coli with Trimethoprim bound into it is shown below:
Last edited on Sun Nov 1st, 2009 03:06 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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Russ
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Mon Oct 19th, 2009 09:08 |
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Dr Trevor Marshall wrote: Folic Acid is already on our list of foods to minimize, as it is an essential part of the nutrition for some families of bacteria (your body needs some folate, but it is added to most bread and flour these days)
Is there an estimate on the amount of folate that one needs? Would you say it's closer to 25mcg, 100mcg, or 400mcg?
Thanks.
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Lyme, MCS, ADD, optic nerve inflammation | Phase 1: Jul '06 | Phase 3: Jul '07 | 25D: 5 ng/ml (Oct '09)
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jcwat101
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Posted: Tue Oct 20th, 2009 05:14 |
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Our general answer for most vitamins is near the RDA and that is 400 mcg in this case. The other general answer is there should be enough if you eat what is generally considered a healthy, well-balanced diet.
Joyce Waterhouse
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 http://SynergyHN.com
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seanlane
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 01:55 |
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Does Bactrim affect folic acid in some way?
It seems as though much of my chronic conditions have been significantlly reversed......however psoriasis is still a problem from time to time. Is there any evidence of the skin conditions like psoriasis sucumbing more noticeably to Bactrim?
~Sean
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bipolar CFS neuropathy food sensitivities MCS guillain-barre 125D58 Ph1Jul/08 Ph2Oct/08 25D=17.8 Sept/08 25D=11.8 Jul/09 Ph3 Sept/09
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jlunn247
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 17:37 |
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Could there be a topical cream solution with benicar in the future?
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emphysema/ cfs/nerve pain/ 125D56 /25D16/Ph1Mar07 ModPh2Jun07/Ph2Nov07/pHase3Feb08/spiriva
dark sunglasses hands & face exposed/light physical herx.jan10
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inuk2600
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 19:29 |
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marysue wrote: It would be interesting to know just how much of a food source sulfur is for "some microbes";(snip) Would it be (snip)... worth limiting those foods?
Marysue, can you post a link or PM me the list that you mentioned (free thiol/sulfur)?
I have suspected the sulfur rich foods as contributing to my food sensitivities.
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CFS symptoms | 25D9(Mar09) | 25D14(Jun09) | Ph1Apr09 | Ph2Aug09
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 20:58 |
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jlunn247 wrote: Could there be a topical cream solution with benicar in the future?
It would have to be approved via the FDA before it could be sold or distributed. That process could take years, and typically costs $200,000 to $2 million. I am trying to work out ways of getting it through the system for less than that, but I don't have any opportunities at the moment.
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marysue
Moderator
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 21:59 |
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inuk,
I just did a google search for high sulfur foods and this was one of the links that came up:
http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/
When I looked over the list, I automatically excluded any foods that I already know have Vit. D or are on the MP foods to avoid list--but with the remaining foods, many that were listed as high in sulfur are problematic for me.
Obviously, I don't know if it has anything to do with sulfur compounds being a food source for some microbes as was noted in the book review, but for now, I have to avoid many of these foods anyway.
Marysue
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Thanks Dr. Marshall and staff for all the support!
CFS/FM '95; infert/endomet '02; hypotension; cardiac IP; start light restrict. Oct08; 125D=70 25D=30 (Feb09); Benicar26Apr09; NoIRs, low light, no sun; 25D=10 (Jun09); 25D=5 (Nov09)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Oct 21st, 2009 22:24 |
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Inuk, Marysue,
We all need some sulphur for our bodies to work properly. Try to eat a balanced diet, do not binge on one food or another
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marysue
Moderator
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Posted: Thu Oct 22nd, 2009 05:35 |
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Thanks for the reminder.  I'm still getting used to the idea that 90% of the cells in my body are non-human.  That's a lot of cells. I've never felt more alien.
And, hopefully eating a balanced diet will help us all get along.
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Thanks Dr. Marshall and staff for all the support!
CFS/FM '95; infert/endomet '02; hypotension; cardiac IP; start light restrict. Oct08; 125D=70 25D=30 (Feb09); Benicar26Apr09; NoIRs, low light, no sun; 25D=10 (Jun09); 25D=5 (Nov09)
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JoshR
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Posted: Sun Nov 1st, 2009 02:48 |
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seanlane wrote:
Does Bactrim affect folic acid in some way?
Trimethoprim is one of the ingredients in Bactrim.
From Trevor: Thanks, Josh. I have corrected my post to add that info. Oops...
Last edited on Sun Nov 1st, 2009 03:11 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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roonie
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Posted: Wed Nov 4th, 2009 20:09 |
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| I thought i read somewhere that nitric oxide was the end product that was given off in PWC.
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pre MP/lyme disease diognosed clinically in 2005.vommetting/diahrea back in 1981.Jaw pain/fuzzy headed feeling with ulcer soon after.chemical overexposure triggered immune system into hyper state with hundreds of symtoms.litterally!now exhuasted
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Joyful
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 07:44 |
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From "Nitric oxide and macrophage function" (PMID: 9143691)
At the interface between the innate and adaptive immune systems lies the high-output isoform of nitric oxide synthase (NOS2 or iNOS). This remarkable molecular machine requires at least 17 binding reactions to assemble a functional dimer. Sustained catalysis results from the ability of NOS2 to attach calmodulin without dependence on elevated Ca2+.
Expression of NOS2 in macrophages is controlled by cytokines and microbial products, primarily by transcriptional induction. NOS2 has been documented in macrophages from human, horse, cow, goat, sheep, rat, mouse, and chicken. Human NOS2 is most readily observed in monocytes or macrophages from patients with infectious or inflammatory diseases.
Sustained production of NO endows macrophages with cytostatic or cytotoxic activity against viruses, bacteria, fungi, protozoa, helminths, and tumor cells. The antimicrobial and cytotoxic actions of NO are enhanced by other macrophage products such as acid, glutathione, cysteine, hydrogen peroxide, or superoxide.
Although the high-output NO pathway probably evolved to protect the host from infection, suppressive effects on lymphocyte proliferation and damage to other normal host cells confer upon NOS2 the same protective/destructive duality inherent in every other major component of the immune response.
Nitric oxide is produced within macrophages to use against pathogens.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Thu Nov 5th, 2009 13:25 |
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Joyful wrote: Nitric oxide is produced within macrophages to use against pathogens.
Which is why we look to see the BUN (Blood Urea Nitrogen) rising early in MP therapy, and why the sweat so often smells of ammonia
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terrylmcc
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:09 |
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Hi Dr Marshall,
This could be way off base, but im curious enough to ask. Could the nitrous oxide be causing gas build up in tissue within the body. Enough to make one uncomfortable until the body can somehow rid it's self of it? I have often felt gas build uo in my lower back "kidney area" , which eventually seems to gurgle its self away.
Just a thought worth pondering, or maybe not. Thanks --Terry
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Sarcoidosis/lung &cutanious biopsy. uveitis Ph1,Jan07 ModPh2,Apr07 Ph2, Dec07 Ph3,Feb08 NoIRs avoid lite exposure, 25 D 6/08 = 5, 25D 3-09 4.
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terrylmcc
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 01:13 |
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I cant edit so im doing an add on reply.
I meant Nitric oxide. Not nitrous oxide which i think is an anesthetic?
--Terry
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Sarcoidosis/lung &cutanious biopsy. uveitis Ph1,Jan07 ModPh2,Apr07 Ph2, Dec07 Ph3,Feb08 NoIRs avoid lite exposure, 25 D 6/08 = 5, 25D 3-09 4.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Fri Nov 6th, 2009 02:52 |
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I really doubt that, but have no data for or against
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