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mercuryspice
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 20:14 |
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i broke down and had a coffee, i'm disappointed in myself. I love my coffee. Will it really affect me getting well with the MP?
i need prayer for this i think.
lisa
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Lyme 25d 11, 125D44 25D11 Ph1 Sep06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Oct 07 Ph3May08 motrin flexeril wellbutrin prozac ativan NoIRs lite exp r/t to school
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expate
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 20:20 |
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Thank you Diana!
But on that first one, if I ignore all the numbers and just look at the words "VDR" and "inhibit", they seem to point to the culprits being "wheat germ"  and "energy depletion" [which they defined as accomplished by chilling, but I define as accomplished by exercise  ].
It's all gobbledy gook to me, too.
 dette
Last edited on Tue Mar 17th, 2009 20:35 by expate
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Hypervitaminosis D 1,25-D 52 pg/ml, 25-D 38 (4/08), 25-D 34 (8/08), 25-D 29 (10/08), 25-D 14 (3/09), 25-D 15: D3=15, D2<4 (6/09): all ng/ml, started Ph1 7/17/08, Ph2 11/4/08, Ph3 2/18/09. Covered up, but no facemask any longer. NoIRs. Home low light.
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Chris
Moderator
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Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 20:26 |
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Diana,
I'm with you. I didn't see anything about cookies in there.
Chris
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sarcoid diagnosed 1991, probably started 1983
D25/1,25: Mar04 17/80, Sep04 12/50, Nov04 8/23, Jan05 9/39 May05 6/27; in phase3; fevers, muscle pain, tinnitus, depression, mental-fog, IBS, carpal-tunnel, fatigue, osteopenia
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NickBowler
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Tue Mar 17th, 2009 21:45 |
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Yes it is a bit obtuse, I'm sorry I couldn't find anything clearer so far. Basically nuclear receptor peptides (like VDR) are formed in the cytoplasm and have to be transported into the nucleus before they can transcribe the genes. This is an energy dependent active process so it doesnt just 'happen'. Incidentally 1,25D, also has to be bound to 'vitamin d binding protein' for transport to it's binding sites, as reported on by Garyv recently in 'vitamin d claims in the news'. NO, not true, - see my post below.. Trevor..
The protein involved with the transport to the nucleus in the case of the VDR appears to be inhibited in it's action by WGA (wheat germ agglutinin), a well known lectin found in some cereal products. So maybe that is one reason why cookies etc. are such comfort foods, because they slow the innate immune response.Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 03:04 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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Sarcoirodis CIDP, MP start 11/07, NoIRs, 02/08 25D-8, Ph3 since 07/08|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 03:16 |
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You know, one of the problems of relying upon peer-reviewed papers is that so many of them are incorrect, and most (nearly all) are more than a few years old, and of questionable value (the translocation papers are too old to be useful, IMO).
Mouse were recently bred without the D Binding Protein (DBP), and lived perfectly normal lives, reproducing normally. Yet they had zero (yes, ZERO) circulating levels of 1,25-D in their bloodstreams.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18372326
This tells us that Adams et al's hypothesis that DBP is necessary for translocation is almost certainly not true, because the mice would not be healthy without translocation.
Secondly, this tells us that 1,25-D is not a circulating signal hormone, but a metabolite leaking through the cell wall into the bloodstream. Which is why it is at such a low concentration. Look at this diagram: (the I and V are vertical arrows, BTW)
25-D in bloodstream at 40nanomolar
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V
20 times attenuation
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V
Cell Cytoplasm, 25- D and 1,25-D both at about 2 nanomolar
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V
20 times attenuation
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V
1,25-D transported by DBP in the bloodstream at 100 picomolar
Which implies that 25-D leaks from the bloodstream through the phospholipid bilayer (which forms the cell wall) into the cytoplasm, and 1,25-D leaches out from the cytoplasm into the bloodstream (each with about a 20 times concentration attenuation compared to the cytoplasm).
It also implies that the cell gets all the Vitamin D it needs from its own internal sources, and the circulating 25-D contribution from diet, etc, is purely collateral damage from eating and hunting, as it is ultimately immunosuppressive.
See, it's quite easy to turn the whole scientific world on its head 
..Trevor..
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NickBowler
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 09:42 |
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Fascinating Trevor, but I find it intriguing that DBP does appear to have an important involvement with the immune response anyway. These are the Yamamoto papers that Garyv referred to - how do you think they might relate to MP thinking?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18058096
Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 09:50 by Dr Trevor Marshall
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Sarcoirodis CIDP, MP start 11/07, NoIRs, 02/08 25D-8, Ph3 since 07/08|
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 09:52 |
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D Binding protein has a pretty low affinity for the Vitamin D metabolites, by comparison with the VDR. I suspect that binding the D metabolites is not its primary role.
Yamamoto's papers are exploring what could be the DBP primary role. Note that the role explored by Yamamoto has nothing to do with the DBP protein's ability to bind the D metabolites.
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marion villa
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 20:45 |
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Trevor: this qestion is very silly, but I couldnt refrain myself:
Can you invent a pill which stop us to produce D stuff???
It would be soo nice...
kiss
Last edited on Wed Mar 18th, 2009 20:46 by marion villa
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Lupus, RA, erythema nosodum, skin ulcers, MP 11/07, voltaren, paracetamol , ,Tylex w/codeine, NoIRs, limited outings covered up,Ph 2 /20 april 2008, 25D<4ng, ph 3/ 22 oct 2008.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 22:08 |
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Marion, Unfortunately, D-stuff does a lot of things on a variety of receptors throughout the body, and I doubt we would survive if it was fully blocked
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marion villa
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Mar 18th, 2009 23:15 |
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 ,
thanks!
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Lupus, RA, erythema nosodum, skin ulcers, MP 11/07, voltaren, paracetamol , ,Tylex w/codeine, NoIRs, limited outings covered up,Ph 2 /20 april 2008, 25D<4ng, ph 3/ 22 oct 2008.
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k
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Posted: Thu Mar 19th, 2009 05:07 |
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Anecdotally, coffee makes me feel bloody fantastic! (I first indulged after being on the MP about 14 months, during which time I hadn't had any coffee). Because it made me feel so great, I knew that it had to be seriously interfering with my system (as this thread indicates). So I continue to abstain. But occasionally weaken and indulge in a weak cup.
regards, k
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CFS menorrhagia & dysmenorrhoea anxiety depression paxil 600mg calcium daily Ph1Oct07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Sept08 25D:Jul07=50 Oct07=23 Jan08=13.2 Oct08=12.8 Sept09:10 NoIRs cover-up low lux home lite exp r/t to work
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 17:47 |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12460875
Coffee acutely increases sympathetic nerve activity and blood pressure independently of caffeine content: role of habitual versus nonhabitual drinking.
full paper http://circ.ahajournals.org/cgi/content/full/106/23/2935
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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mercuryspice
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 22:42 |
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i really don't understand alll the science of it all. Basically my question is if i continue to have a medium iced coffee almost everyday will it affect my MP progress? What will it do to the immune system?
Ps does anyone know about NT factor for energy?
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Lyme 25d 11, 125D44 25D11 Ph1 Sep06 ModPh2Jan07 Ph2Oct 07 Ph3May08 motrin flexeril wellbutrin prozac ativan NoIRs lite exp r/t to school
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Foundation Staff
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Posted: Fri Mar 20th, 2009 23:10 |
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Basically my question is if i continue to have a medium iced coffee almost everyday will it affect my MP progress? What will it do to the immune system?
Nobody knows the answer. All we can do is alert you to probable problems. You will need to stop this activity for a few days, and see if it makes any difference.
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wrotek
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Posted: Sat Mar 21st, 2009 09:33 |
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Mercuryspice, i look at it all in a very simple way.. What is not necessary, should be avoided.
Our body runs on certain type of fuel.
Proteins, fats, carbohydrates, vitamins (where vitamin D is not a vitamin anymore ) minerals & water. Nothing more is needed.
Anything more can be either harmful because biologically active, or a waste, that body will have to use energy to detoxify.
And coffee contains hundreds of chemicals.
Last edited on Sat Mar 21st, 2009 09:34 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Lottis
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Posted: Sat Mar 21st, 2009 10:57 |
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Wrotek, you forgot one thing. The Beatles claimed; All you need is love!
wrotek wrote: Nothing more is needed.
Anything more can be either harmful because biologically active, or a waste, that body will have to use energy to detoxify....
If the coffee and the cigarettes makes you a more loving person, that might be a necessary fuel for many of us, to go on.
But on the other hand, love can be harmful. What good brings a broken heart...
If I do not get my coffee in the morning, I am a total mess and close to dangerous.  And a few times in my life, I have gone back to smoking cigarettes, just to prevent something much, much worse to happen.
My conclusion is;
If it comes down to life and death, of course we must choose immediate palliation! Last edited on Sat Mar 21st, 2009 11:02 by Lottis
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HTN,LVH,CHF,arrhythmia,hypercholesterol,IBS? fibromyalgia?salivarystones,gallstones,ect...|15feb-07 init. 1,25D 37,5,|25-D 7,8(latest 15/2-07)| Ph1 29/7-08| Palliativ Meds. at the present; |Zoloft|NoIR's|covered up|disabled|
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wrotek
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Posted: Sat Mar 21st, 2009 11:06 |
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If I do not get my coffee in the morning, I am a total mess and close to dangerous. That sums up exactly what coffee is.
but i am still struggling to quit it too
Last edited on Sat Mar 21st, 2009 11:11 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Guss Wilkinson
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 19:34 |
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Everything in moderation – even moderation!
Cheers
Guss
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Dx Sarc May 2002 Stage 2. Estimate Sarc since 1987. Lungs, Joints, Kidneys & GI. Two failed Prednisone courses. (Started MP: Oct 2003 - D25...31ng/ml, 1-25D...76 pg/ml), Phase III since July 2004; BP 100/60. Feeling pretty good!
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wrotek
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Posted: Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 20:26 |
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I would like to say something about the taste and why is it for.
Taste is the mechanism that evolved to inform us whether food in our mouth has a nutritional value.
Now, lest take a look how raw black tea, raw coffee and raw cocoa taste like, without any additional sugar, milk. They are bitter and very distasteful.
Moreover, black tea is created by fermentation of the leaves of green tea. It means that green tea leaves lay down and the bacteria come and eat all the sugar left and all nutritional value in them, then bacteria die and leave all the rest that cannot be converted into energy anymore, to serve as a food for bacteria.
We have made a culture out of these "waste" products that we call a black tea or coffee or cacao :] When we add sugar or rmilk, they have nutritional value again and taste better ;]
Last edited on Sun Mar 22nd, 2009 20:34 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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wrotek
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Posted: Fri Mar 27th, 2009 08:53 |
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"Caffeine and join pain" discussion
http://tinyurl.com/dc35ev these are higly interesting stories of coffee users,
personally i like this one
Joint pain and Coffee
Postby john.631 on Sun Nov 21, 2004 6:46 pm I am a very lucky 73 year old male who has no chronic pains and who is not on any prescription or over-the-counter drugs. I usually don't drink coffee, but I make 4 cups a day in the morning for my wife. Recently I started saving her coffee leftovers in the refrigerator since I found I like iced coffee. Normally, I would sip hot coffee, but I found myself chug-a lugging 8 ounces of the cold stuff in a few minutes. Then I began to suffer very serious neck and back pain from what before had been temporary discomforts. (One night I was awake at 4 AM seriously considering going to the emergency room.) I would have to avoid further irritation of that particular pain for two days before it would abate. And then another injury would occur and I began to think my pain free days were over and that I had suddenly contracted arthritis. Remember I have been in good spirits and chronic pain free for 73 years. I was beginning to panic. The only thing I could think of to do was to quit drinking all that coffee. And that was the end of it. I was back to my old pain free self
http://tinyurl.com/dljzx7
and here are other stories, much unique and harder, with stronger psychological reactions - very unique.
some quotesFinally I have found someone else with similar problems with caffeine. I have just resently (three weeks ago) solved my problem with panic disorder and stress.
I had your exact experience with caffeine, also in my early thirties. Although I was in excellent health, within a year of starting to drink coffee I experienced anxiety attacks, mania, depression and--horrifyingly--psychosis. In the last few weeks of my coffee habit I was walking around like a zombie and could hardly speak above a whisper. When I quit caffeine my symptoms vanished.
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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