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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 17:05 |
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No doubt most animals did not have a latent pathogen load anywhere near what long-lived human subject would have had.
Jim,
My presentation last week at DMM2007 tells you the answer - the VDR of animals is nowhere near that of man. Even the apes' VDR are not close in homology to man. The VDR in rats and mice does not even transcribe the antimicrobial peptides.
http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/9219.html
Animal models did not allow us to discover the secrets of immune disease - mathematics did, mathematics that very few scientists can even comprehend, let alone practice...
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 17:12 |
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Is it primarily the bacterial load, i.e. the quantity of bacteria, that separates "normal", "healthy" individuals from those of us that are "sick"? Or are those of us who are sick infected with especially nasty species/strains of bugs that are integrated into our bacterial pea-soup but absent from the bacterial population of "normal", "healthy" folks?
Russ,
There is no simple answer. One certainly needs to have enough bacterial load to shut down the VDR. Most healthy folk still have a partly functional VDR. But then, folk with a heavy load of gliding bacteria are apparently more likely to have a non-functional VDR than folk with a heavy load of, for example, strep or e-coli.
As we collect more data it will be interesting to see if there are any particularly nasty species. At the moment I don't really see it, as folks with diagnoses of RA, Lyme or Sarcoidosis can be debilitated by CFS (for example) to similar degrees. So it will be interesting to see how things pan-out as we gather more data and understanding.
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patrickburke
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Posted: Fri Jun 8th, 2007 20:10 |
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Jimbbb,
My thoughts are "catastrophic system failure" = "gobbledygook".
In other words all they know is "it went wrong"  plus lots of other scientific definitions that other great people before them have defined.
The sooner these mediocre scientists open their eyes and start listening to the ground breakers like our Prof M the better.
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Sarcoidosis/lungs; Ph1 May05; Ph2 Jun05; Ph3 Dec05; No ABX 2/08; No D tests; still covered since 6/04; Noirs ended 6/07; Minimal light avoidance.
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ShrnHml
Guest
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:40 |
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I wish I had the background and functioning brain to understand this science and to ask a discerning question.
As it is, I can only ask if this has anything to do with the hip joint pain that I and many others have experienced as IPR. I'm inferring that MPers will be less likely to need hip replacements? .............Sharon
Last edited on Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:41 by ShrnHml
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Neuroborreliosis, MP 3/05, 1,25D 62; 3/06 25D<4, ModPh2 12/05, Premarin, Effexor, stopped Benicar 1/07....no longer in study
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wrotek
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 03:52 |
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Maybe we could take just a tiny tiny dose of anti-capnine 
Sherry, Capnine is uniquely made by gliding bacteria. If capnine turns out to be the only bacterial product which blocks the VDR, you really don't want to try and target this with a drug. If you did neutralize the capnine, you would end up with an immune system that is suddenly freed to attack ALL of the pathogenic load at once. Think about it - you are using just enough antibiotic to kill a few bugs every day. Imagine if suddenly your immune system was returned to 'normal' and started attacking all the bugs, all at once. You would become very ill indeed. Probably you would die. So we need to be careful what we wish for
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Jun 9th, 2007 09:29 |
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Maybe we could take just a tiny tiny dose of anti-capnine
It's called 'Benicar.'
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 11:39 |
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| I hope this is not seen as unrelated, but the joint replacement study has made me want to ask a question that I've been having for some time. What is the role of bacteria in the rejection of organ transplants (for both the donor and donee)? It seems to me that the field of organ transplants has so much money flowing into it that there should be a natural interest in Dr. Marshall's work. Claire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2/08 to 5/25/08
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Claudia
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 15:53 |
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And I've been wondering for a while about the various CWD / mycobacteria / L-forms / and now gliding bacteria... of which I understand we all have a whole menagerie. Do they all interfere with the VDR or do some of them just take advantage of the situation and set up housekeeping in our cells because the more potent bacterial bretheren have done the dirty work? It seems some intracellular bacteria - in other, far-flung tissue, just "exist" but don't necessarily affect us directly/systemically.
Before this thread was posted, I was thinking of it mostly in terms of those pathogens infecting the phagocytes doing most of the work and those pathogens living in other tissues getting an advantage. But now there is this lipid, capnine being pumped out by biofilm bacteria. Which brings up a secondary question: are the gliding bacteria "complete" i.e. having normal cell walls? If so, that brings up the next logical question: what happens when you treat gliding bacteria / biofilms with ordinary antibiotics? That led me to look into biofilms, which it turns out, are really very neat little colonies of various organisms, not necessarily exclusively bacteria! Thence to reports of bacterial "persister cells" and I can't figure out if they are L-forms or "spores" or ??? But anyway, this fellow's research on that topic was interesting: http://www.biology.neu.edu/faculty03/lewis03.html
Good luck to him, as he is trying to develop materials with medical applications which bio-films won't grow on. Also, he makes the observation that plants - having been at it longer than humans - are "smart" enough to use synergistic interaction among different compounds in producing their natural antibiotics.
Medical researchers need to stop looking for the (singular) magic bullet because you need to tie those little suckers up before you shoot 'em or they just glide away! Oh dear, I think I'm suffering from a cascading-metaphor-storm...
 Claudia
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MP Phase1 23Mar_06; Phase2 July 10_06; Phase3 Nov 4_06. Dx Thyroiditis (Thyroxine); arthritis; glaucoma; CFS (1988-92);Kidney & bladder probs. Feb06 1,25D=43.3; Aug07 1,25D=27.5; Feb06 25D=44; Aug07 25D=28; Nov07 25D=36; Mar08 25D=16.4
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Dr. Greg Blaney
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 19:31 |
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Trevor
As a personal experience, I have 8 screws in my right tibia which are palpable through the skin. I have had them since 1990. They always were sensitive and periodically felt swollen. I considered several times to go through the trauma of removal but resisted. Over the last year, the inflammation and sensitivity have waned to an almost non-existent state.
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54 year old male, tinnitis, left bundle branch block, mild psoriasis, 25 D 33.2, 1,25D 57.7, Benicar 40mg q6h since Dec 25/04, started mino Jan 7/05, C Mar 19/05.
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Jimbbb
Member
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Posted: Sun Jun 10th, 2007 22:31 |
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Claudia,
Along the lines of your comments concerning the many types of bacteria that could possible cause problems with VDR (or do they all do so).
Science News (May 19) had a very interesting article about microbial populations inhabiting the human body and discussed a few specific cases of their disease effects.
But here are two quotes i found fascinating:
"In fact, in every person's body, there are 10 times as many microbial cells as there are human cells. "The microbial part of ourselves is highly evolved," says Jeffrey Gordon, a microbiologist at Washington University in St. Louis. "These organisms have learned to adapt to life with us." "
and this one:
"In any one human, there are 100 times as many microbial genes as there are human genes" -- David Relman, Stanford University
This article is available in full at:
http://www.sciencenews.org/articles/20070519/bob9.asp
And as always Science News articles are very readable (but of course they are only articles about the much more detailed research studies).
jim
Last edited on Mon Jun 11th, 2007 00:07 by Jimbbb
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Interested (healthy) bystander with distant cousin who has Chronic Lyme.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 00:48 |
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Thanks, Jim, your link led me to
"Fat people harbour 'fat' microbes"
http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=3017
and
"An obesity-associated gut microbiome with increased capacity for energy harvest"
http://tinyurl.com/2rfrzp PMID: 17183312
which was a very nice find indeed
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tickbite
Guest
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 18:15 |
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My girlfriend is certified in clinical nutrition. She's all about "diet" and "exercise" being the biggest factors of obesity. I do agree that scarfing down Dr. Pepper and Cheeto's all day long sitting on your couch influence obesity, however sometimes I wonder how much of the problem is diet and exercise and how much is microbial. Besides the two divisions of bacteria detailed in the links above, how much more involved is it? I mean, surely obesity is a much more of a system wide pea-soup aggregation of L-forms and good old regular bacteria? I guess what i'm getting at is do anyone think L-forms play a role in obesity? if so how much of the overall picture do they play?
~Greg
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 18:33 |
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Greg,
Yes, the bacterial family simplification that they made during that study is clearly only scratching the surface. It's value to me is in firming up my model, which predicts that all the Th1 diseases should be exponentiating together, and obesity now certainly can be placed into that model. Yesterday we found that Alzheimers does too (quadrupling by 2050). Joining diabetes, arthritis, asthma, and all the rest...
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eClaire
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 18:44 |
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| Dr. Marshall, Are there stats that might show this exponential increase of chronic illness increasing in countries that are supplementing with Vit D (and/or using vaccinations) or does the condition of countries that do not supplement (e.g., food, sanitation, etc.) sort of cancel out any stats of this kind? Claire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2/08 to 5/25/08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 19:00 |
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Claire,
There is a general trend that US health is poor by comparison with other Western nations, but little solid data. I think Michael Moore's 'Sicko' film does go into the statistics a little.
The problem is that Vitamin D is pervasive throughout the world. Indeed, baby food with Vitamin D was introduced (by Nestle corporation) into the third world back in the 1950's. I know that I was given plenty of cod liver oil by my mother in Australia (also in the 1950's).
So you can see, the epidemiological problem is not simple.
However, countries which do not have fortified milk generally seem to have a lower rate of Th1 disease than here in the USA.
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Mon Jun 11th, 2007 22:18 |
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| A formula called "lebertran" which is a fish liver oil was very popular in Germany when I was a child. Just did some research and looks like it was in use from early last century and at one stage kids were forced to drink it daily at school. I can still taste the revolting taste of it. It came in a bottle and you took a tablespoon full. So....probably several generations raised on massive daily doses of vitamin D. Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Ebeth
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 18:38 |
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Think about it - you are using just enough antibiotic to kill a few bugs every day. Imagine if suddenly your immune system was returned to 'normal' and started attacking all the bugs, all at once. You would become very ill indeed. Probably you would die.
So we need to be careful what we wish for
Dr. Marshall,
Your comment has reminded me of a question about bacteriophages:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacteriophage
Is that the same reason that bacteriophages couldn't be used to treat Th1 illnesses? I am thinking so, but wondered what you think of bacteriophage therapy.
Thanks,
Elizabeth
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Sarcoidosis/liver hypothyroid 125D49 Ph1Feb06 Ph2Jun06 Ph3Jan07 break Jul-Oct07 surg Mino only Feb-Jun08 2nd surg Ph2Aug08 Armour thyroid 25D5(7/08)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 19:01 |
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Elizabeth,
Phages form part of the "pea-soup" and I am therefore very loathe to consider them as part of any therapy.
For example, these gliding bacteria produce a toxin, myxin, which kills nearby colonies of e-Coli. yet when those colonies have been infected with the T4 bacteriophage, the e-Coli are no longer killed by that toxin.
"Effect of myxin on deoxyribonucleic acid synthesis in Escherichia coli infected with T4 bacteriophage"
http://tinyurl.com/2b9pdm PMID: 4927527
The pea-soup is a very complex mix, and is dictated by history. My tendency is to always try to return health by drawing down the size of the communities which contribute to that soup, including all viral, phage and bacterial components.
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tickbite
Guest
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 22:27 |
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| If L-forms are 0.01microns (1X10^-8m) and bacteriophages are 20-200nm (2X10^-8m ->20X10-8m), that would mean even bacteriophages are at least twice, if not 20 times bigger than CWD bacterial form. However, that's not that much bigger when one considers microscopes. I'm curious as to what bacteriologists think when they encounter L-forms. Surely they can see them. I'm under the impression L-forms can't be cultured easy but they should be easily seen.
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"Lyme","CFS", Meningitis
Phase3 8-2-07, MP on hold 11/2007
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jun 13th, 2007 22:40 |
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Greg,
When pathologists see L-forms in their microscopes they ignore them because they know that something that small couldn't possibly harm a human being
That might sound like sarcasm, but Alan Cantwell tells me he used to be given a plethora of similar platitudes..
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