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jean uk
inactive member
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 16:22 |
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I am 14 stone which is obese for my 5ft 2" frame GP prescribed xenical are these allowed on the MP
Jean UK
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Jean UK: Lyme cfs fibro| Neuro faTIGUE| avoid light| work| DATE 25D-19.2 1,25D-45| Mar07 Beni q6hr| Ph3 Nov07|
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 17:50 |
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| Xenical (orlistat) works primarily in the intestines but a small amount is absorbed systemically. It is touted to cause weight loss by preventing fat absorption. However, a low-fat diet must be consumed in order to prevent diarrhea and fecal incontinence. Thus, the weight loss could be attributed to diet alone. IMO, a low carb diet would be a safer alternative while you are recovering your health (and a normal weight) on the MP.
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Sue from St. Louis
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 00:29 |
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Meg, Did you have a weight problem before MP? Can you deliniate the specific CNS symptoms you expereinced while on MP? Where they the same or different from the symp. when you were diagnosed?
Sue from St. Louis
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Sarcoidosis/CNS 1,25D48, D2511, MP 9/06, Mod Ph2 11/07 Synthroid, Diclofenec, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Lasix (as needed), amitriptyline, NOIRs, cover-up, low lux home
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 00:46 |
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I had a weight problem for many years prior to the MP. Here is a 'before and after' picture.
I had unilateral tibial neuropathy (nerve dysfunction) that presented with altered sensation, severe calf muscle cramps and severe atrophy of my left foot extending up to my midcalf. Immunopathology manifested as an exacerbation of these symptoms. You will find a detailed report in MARSHALL PROTOCOL SUCCESS STORIES
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Sue from St. Louis
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 01:13 |
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WOW! There's hope for me to stay thin when this is all over. Thanks for the pictures.
Sue
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Sarcoidosis/CNS 1,25D48, D2511, MP 9/06, Mod Ph2 11/07 Synthroid, Diclofenec, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Lasix (as needed), amitriptyline, NOIRs, cover-up, low lux home
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 14:08 |
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Hi Sue. My story is nothing as tremendous as Meg's but I thought I would mention to you that last year I walked at least 2 hours every day and managed to loose a fair bit of weight. Had to give up all that walking on the MP and I was really worried that I would pile the weight back on. Well...first couple of months I lost 4 kg when I changed to a totally low carb diet. Then I slackened on my carbs and quite a few crept back in and I regained the 4 kilos. Now....after a month or so of going back onto the low carb eating I have shed those 4 and 3 others. So...all in all...without any exercise and leading a very sedentary lifestyle...I managed to loose 7 kg in 5 months. It's early days but I am hopeful to follow in the footsteps of those amazing people in those photos!
Just follow Meg's advise. You'll do well! Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Sue from St. Louis
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Wed Jul 18th, 2007 22:09 |
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Thank you all for the feedback.
Sue
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Sarcoidosis/CNS 1,25D48, D2511, MP 9/06, Mod Ph2 11/07 Synthroid, Diclofenec, Cymbalta, Wellbutrin, Lasix (as needed), amitriptyline, NOIRs, cover-up, low lux home
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wrotek
Member in Phase 3
| Joined: | Fri Dec 31st, 2004 |
| Location: | Wroclaw, Poland |
| Posts: | 1129 |
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Posted: Thu Jul 26th, 2007 06:39 |
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Do regulatory T Cells Contribute to Th1 Skewness in Obesity?Svec P, Vásárhelyi B, Pászthy B, Körner A, Kovács L, Tulassay T, Treszl A.1Research Group of Pediatrics and Nephrology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Budapest, Hungary.
BACKGROUND: Recent data suggest that an increased prevalence of interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) producing CD4 (+) cells is present in obesity. Regulatory T cells (Tregs) have a strong impact on activation and proliferation of CD4 (+) lymphocytes. Data are not available about Tregs and their possible contribution to chronic mild inflammation in obesity. DESIGN: We investigated the prevalence of Tregs in obese children. We also collected data about dendritic cells and monocytes (so-called antigen presenting cells, APCs), important modulators of Tregs and we determined the cytokine production of CD4 (+) lymphocytes, the main target cells of Tregs. METHODS: Twelve obese children and 10 healthy age-matched controls have been enrolled. For flow cytometric analyses, peripheral blood mononuclear cells were used. We determined the prevalence of Tregs by Foxp3 expression of CD4 (+) cells; prevalence of myeloid and plasmacytoid dendritic cells (DCs); prevalence of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha and interleukin(IL)-12 producing monocytes; and prevalence of IL-2, IL-4 and IFN-gamma producing CD4 (+) cells. RESULTS: The prevalence of Tregs, DCs, TNF-alpha and IL-12 producing macrophages, IL-2 and IFN-gamma producing CD4 (+) cells was similar in both groups. The prevalence of IL-4 producing CD4 (+) cells was lower in obese children than in healthy controls (p=0.028). The ratio of IFN-gamma (+)/ IL-4 (+) CD4 (+) cells was higher in obese children than in those with normal weight (p=0.046). CONCLUSIONS: CD4 (+) reactions are polarized toward Th1 direction in obesity. The unaltered number of Treg and APCs suggests that these immune regulator cells do not contribute to altered immune status in obese children.
PMID: 17647141 [PubMed - in process]
Last edited on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 06:42 by wrotek
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Lyme reflux chronic pain fatigue depression 125D36 Ph1Sep05 Ph2Oct06 Ph3Apr07 homebound in low lux NoIRs 25D<7 Oct06
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vwitcher
inactive member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 18th, 2007 |
| Location: | Arkansas USA |
| Posts: | 47 |
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Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2007 18:10 |
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Speaking of gut bacteria: in doing some research on vitamin sources, I read that some vitamins (pyridoxine, biotin, vitamin K) are produced by gut bacteria in addition to being ingested.
This brought a couple of questions to mind:
1. Would we suffer deficiencies in these if all gut bacteria were eliminated; and
2. Could this vitamin production by gut bacteria have been "hijacked" by harmful bugs for motives yet undiscovered, as 1,25D is by CWD's?
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5 yrs. very high BP,fatigue,headache,hrt palp, IBS,joint/muscle pain,muscle wasting,neuro sx,deaf one ear.Start D/light avoid 1/21/07.Start MP 2/23/07; Re-started 4/18/07. Mod Ph2 6/27/07; Ph3 7/25/07 q24h.NoIr's when outside.
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Jul 30th, 2007 19:32 |
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Would we suffer deficiencies in these if all gut bacteria were eliminated
We almost have enough data to answer this question, but not quite definitively. My current gut feeling is no - the bacteria may be helpful in several ways, but the human body will adapt to their absence. We will have a full answer in another year or two.
The answer will come when more folk on the MP get to full recovery (their own innate immune systems working again) yet they are still taking prophylactic antibiotics (which no longer produce immunopathology). These folk will have no, or very little, gut flora. The few of us in that situation right now are not needing supplements, so it seems the body has adjusted. However, these days, Vitamin K is in candy bars and breakfast cereals, so it is questionable where the healthy body would get its supplies from anyway (as, speaking for myself, I eat all sorts of food these days...).
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Joyful
Research Team
| Joined: | Sat Jun 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | West Coast, USA |
| Posts: | 531 |
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 22:14 |
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In the topic What kind of probiotics should I use? Dr. Marshall explains that the function of probiotics appears to be via stimulation of the innate immune system in the gut.
Normally anything that stimulates the innate immune system would be contraindicated for the MP.
This seems to be an area where the best approach is to only use probiotics if they are helping to palliate intolerable symptoms. But then some will ask, what probiotics are the best choice when you are needing their help?
Some of the strains mentioned on the MP Probiotics topic are: Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. reuteri, L. plantarum, L. casei, B. bifidus, S. salivarius, and S. thermophilus and the yeast Saccharomyces boulardii.
Looking around, it is easy to see that there are many types of probiotics developed to help with various issues. And if you don't want to pop a pill, you can use cultured foods such as yogurt or live sauerkraut to increase your gut's acidophilus population.
One of type of probiotic sold OTC in Germany, mentioned in the video Dr. Marshall posted here, even comes from the gut of the one army guy who didn't die from diarrhea in 1917!
Escherichia coli strain nissle 1917 is the most studied probiotic strain of E. coli. Its name is derived from the fact that it was isolated from a World War I soldier who survived a particularly severe outbreak of diarrhea.
Also, there are some new fermented or cultured products on the supplement market such as this one that states: "The ingredient to be investigated was an end product of fermentation of baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)." and makes the following claim "Novel Immune System Enhancer Strengthens Microbial and Mutagenic Defense" (product name, epicor).
Another fermented product is this one that again makes great claims to be a "very strong immune enhancer" (product name, omx12+). They also make the claim:
The most important strain of lactic acid bacteria in OMX 12+ Probiotic Formula may be the proprietary TH 10 strain developed by Dr. Ohhira from the Malaysian food delicacy -Tempeh. TH 10 has been proven effective in vitro against the most virulent pathogens including the MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) superbug, E coli-157, H. pylori (the cause of peptic ulcers). Each capsule of OMX 12+ Probiotic Formula contains several billion live lactic acid bacteria that are 6.25 times stronger than any other intestinal bacteria known to microbiologists.
My question is this...
Are these (highly priced) fermented products really any different from the other probiotics? Aren't they all stimulating the innate immune system?
Last edited on Fri Sep 21st, 2007 22:16 by Joyful
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Lyme Babs Bart - 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 - cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium - rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home - 25D17 Jul08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 02:25 |
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Joyful,
I personally had a very diseased gut until about year 5 into the MP. Bloating, pain, and a host of other symptoms were a constant nuisance. I never found any probiotic to be any use in reducing those symptoms, and I did try a number of probiotics over the years.
Based on how I think probiotics work (increasing the work to be done by the innate immune system in the GI tract) I suspect that any palliative actions would come at the cost of healing elsewhere in the body. But I have no data, and the studies I have seen were all based on a flawed disease model, and therefore of no real help.
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Joyful
Research Team
| Joined: | Sat Jun 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | West Coast, USA |
| Posts: | 531 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 03:57 |
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Thank you Dr. Marshall.
Your suspicion that any palliative actions of the probiotics come at the cost of healing elsewhere in the body seems like something that should be seriously considered when choosing whether to use probiotics or not.
Another thought I had was about the claim: "proven effective in vitro against ... MRSA," and your previous comments about how little the in vitro work shows about what actually happens in a real human body.
There may not be data, and the existing studies may be based on a flawed disease model, but I know that this developing Th1 disease model provides the right set of "spectacles" to see new truth in places no one else has thought to look. 
Last edited on Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 03:58 by Joyful
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Lyme Babs Bart - 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 - cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium - rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home - 25D17 Jul08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 06:34 |
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Joyful,
Remember that the secret of success on the MP is being able to keep the immunopathology to a tolerable level for as long as it takes to kill off the bacteria. So there is a role for palliation. There is no need to keep the pedal flat-to-the-floor, this is an endurance race, not a sprint 
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Joyful
Research Team
| Joined: | Sat Jun 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | West Coast, USA |
| Posts: | 531 |
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 06:56 |
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Thank you.
Funny how we need permission to be kind to ourselves during the process.
Funny how the healing requires both killing and the removal of the dead.
The car must have both a gas pedal and a brake pedal.
Not to mention the steering wheel (moderators) and
--for when all else fails--that emergency brake!
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Lyme Babs Bart - 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 - cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium - rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home - 25D17 Jul08
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Moxie
Guest
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 04:46 |
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I am trying to get my head around the fact that if Vitamin D is stored in the fat of the animal and I have managed to get rid of so much of it, why the heck am I putting on loads of weight??
Initially in the first 12-18 months on MP, I lost 10kg and then after a few months I then put back on 5kg and settled at that weight. Recently I have added another 5kg! Very mysterious. It is certainly not related to what I eat.
Would appreciate any feedback on weight.
I am interested in this conversation on probiotics and wonder where cultured foods fit in?? I culture many foods e.g. sauerkraut, daikon radish, root vegetables (turnip, beetroot,radish etc) garlic just using basic method of brine with some herbs and leaving on bench top for a couple of days to ferment. Then it needs to go in fridge here in Queensland otherwise it would explode.
I use them as a condiment probably consuming up to a cup a day overall. I also use Miso sometimes in the culture or add to soups and stews. These foods are very beneficial for promoting bowel regularity and I think that must be a good thing.....
They are certainly cheaper than buying probiotics and much more effective for me.]
Moxie (aka the Demented Fermenter)
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CFS 25 years - FMS. Benicar 3 daily - Ph 2 16/5/05 - Ph 3 10/5/06 Metformin 500mg 1/2 bd. Vit D 45nmol/L (18ng/ml) 1,25 D 92pmol/L (38.3pg/ml)
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 06:33 |
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Moxie,
In 2004, researchers published the results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA. For three years, schoolchildren participated in a massive randomized intervention program, designed to examine the effects of a change in dietary intake, an increase in physical activity, classroom curriculum focused on healthy eating and lifestyle, and a family involvement program. In the end, there was no difference in the adipose composition of the two groups, there was no causal link found between lifestyle and obesity. "The primary aim of the study was to reduce the rate of body fat gain in intervention schools, documented by a significant difference in the rate for the control schools after 3 years. This goal was not reached, and %BodyFat in both groups was essentially identical at the end of the intervention period"
There is no study proving a causal link between lifestyle and obesity. We are told "you are what you eat" but that is not true, because it ignores that the appetite might well be controlled by another factor, eg, Th1 disease.
At the recent Metagenomics conference, Jeff Gordon's group presented a paper showing that obesity was linked to both gut flora and diet. In particular, certain species of bacteria seemed to be encouraged by high fat or high carb diets. In turn, those species all interact with the rest of the flora to determine the efficiency of digestion. I might say "you are what is eating you" but that would be too flippant
Caballero B, Clay T, Davis SM, Ethelbah B, Rock BH, Lohman T, Norman J, Story M, Stone EJ, Stephenson L, Stevens J; Pathways Study Research Group. Pathways: a school-based, randomized controlled trial for the prevention of obesity in American Indian schoolchildren. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Nov;78(5):904-5.
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 07:03 |
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Hi Moxie. Home made fermented food sounds so delicious!
I thought I would add my tuppence worth to the probiotic discussion. I was told by a specialist looking after my bowels (adhesions / ibs issues) over the years to avoid probiotics because they had not been proven scientifically beneficial however he suggested I could include "pre-biotics" in my diet. Apparently these are things like fermented foods and yoghurt. I think they are more gentle and don't have the massive doses of bacteria present in probiotics.
Of course this specialist didn't understand the MP. Just wanted to explain the difference between pro and pre biotics. Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Meg Mangin R.N.
Research Team
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 14:56 |
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According to this website:
Probiotics are beneficial bacteria that can be found in various foods. Common strains include Lactobacillis and Bifidobacterium families of bacteria.
Prebiotics are non-digestible foods that make their way through our digestive system and help good bacteria grow and flourish. Prebiotics keep beneficial bacteria healthy.
Prebiotics that feed the beneficial bacteria in our gut mostly come from carbohydrate fibers called oligosaccharides. We don't digest them, so the oligosaccharides remain in the digestive tract and stimulate the growth of beneficial bacteria. Sources of oligosaccharides include fruits, legumes, and whole grains. Fructo-oligosaccharides are used as supplements and are added to many foods. Yogurt made with bifidobacteria contain oligosaccharides.
Probiotic bacteria like lactobacilli are naturally found in fermented foods like sour kraut and yogurt. Some foods will have added probiotics as healthy nutritional ingredients and this will be evident on the label.
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jcwat101
Research Professional
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 15:32 |
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I have had flare ups of diarrhea due to probiotics supplements containing FOS (fructooligosaccharides) or inulin and this has been reported as contributing to this problem by others. These indigestible prebiotics seem to be able to promote the growth of certain pathogenic bacteria, like Klebsiella and Pseudomonas, in the gut.
So, although, I think sometimes a person may find probiotics to be helpful in reducing symptoms of some types, I stay away from the prebiotics. Cellulose or rice powder as filler seem to be safer. PB8 is one I could tolerate -- it may have a little FOS, but of a type and in an amount that was not a problem. The probiotics recommended by the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) are free of FOS.
That diet is used by some people with Crohn's Disease and Ulcerative Colitis. It is particularly interested in providing the least amount of food for the sort of bacteria I mentioned above. They also eliminate sugars and grains and starchy vegetables. I don't eliminate them, but just avoid eating large amounts.
Interestingly, I find that probiotics and/or eliminating the grains and sugars increases my immunopathology. Personally, I think it is because some of the above bacteria (or some Firmicutes), produce a substance that is like capnine and blocks the VDR. So reducing their food, increases activation of the VDR for me -- and it is quite a large effect in my case, since these bacteria have been found in my gut in the past. So, if one was already having a lot of immunopathology, and one decided to introduce probiotics or diet change, they would be wise to do it cautiously/gradually to assess the effect.
Anyway, if one alters their diet, or stops or starts sugars/grains/certain fibers, this might happen for them too. But, not everyone is likely to be affected the same way -- it is just something that it might be good to be aware of as a possibility when making changes in probiotics or carbs/starches.
Joyce Waterhouse
PS I have talked about this and related subjects some in my progress report and probably will more in the future:
My Progress Report
PPS I mentioned the probiotics without FOS that the SCD uses: there are Kirkman Lab’s Lactobacteria acidophilus and GI Prohealth has a Lactobacteria and Jarrow has a Saccharomyces product (you can search online if interested)
Last edited on Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 20:11 by jcwat101
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20 yrs with CFS/FM/Lyme/IBS, food sensitivities; 1,25D/25D 8/04:64/11 1/05:22/6 9/05:1,25D=12 10/06:22/8, 4/07:25/<4 chewed Ben. 40mg q8h; Mod. P2: 2/23/05, P2: 4/06; P3: 1/1/07
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