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eClaire
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Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:08 |
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Throwing out some un-put-together thoughts about bacteria and obesity. I'm not going to draw any links or logical inferences (sorry brain fog), but I think there might be something there.
Nexium and drugs like that make people more susceptible to a deadly bacteria because stomach acid is one of our lines of defense against bacteria (at least that was something I read last year) Young kids and adults alike are becoming more obese and many are turning to the use of drugs like Nexium (kid use is currently in the news). I am wondering how likely it is that something like Nexium or other commonly used drugs might be contributing to the increase in obesity of some (either viral or bacterial caused). This would be in addition to to the possibility that abx use could contribute to obesity by creating cell wall deficient bacteria and allowing obesity bacteria flourish (if obesity bacteria are able to become cell wall deficient).
It's said (in many of the articles that I've read) that obesity leads to GERD, but I had GERD before I put on additional weight, and I had it bad when I was just at the top of the normal weight scale. I don't attribute my subsequent weight rise to Nexium, as my Nexium use was intermittent--just commenting on the fact that GERD is not necessarily a disease of the fat or even obese. Perhaps that is when most doctors see GERD--that is, when it gets bad enough for the person to see a doctor (or to rise to the level that the person actually notices--I never had heart burn; it was the effect of the GERD on my vocal cords that made me notice I had a problem), maybe the person has gotten fatter between the time the GERD begins and it rises to the level where it's called to a doctor's attention, skewing the studies.
At any rate, just something that's been rolling around in my brain that I thought I'd put out there because it seems to me that there could be many other commonly used over the counter and prescription drugs that compromise our immune systems (in ways other than the VDR) besides steroids and abx.
Claire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2-5/25/08; Temazepam since 9/26/08
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:24 |
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IMO, Pre-natal and neo-natal Vitamin D supplementation is probably the most significant factor other than the inappropriate use of Beta-lactam antibiotics.
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eClaire
Member in Phase 2
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Posted: Fri Oct 5th, 2007 03:59 |
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| Yes, I would suspect that to be the number one cause given the prevalance of obesity and its surge world wide (particularly the Vit D supplementation--you can't spit a short distance without hitting it). Claire
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CFS FMS MCS COPD hypermobility IBS/GERD osteoporosis 125D48 25D8 Ph1Dec06 ModPh2Jun07 NoIRs limited outings covered up low lux home abx brk 3/2-5/25/08; Temazepam since 9/26/08
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chessa9
Member
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Posted: Sun Oct 7th, 2007 18:05 |
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| sent pm..
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 05:05 |
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Now that more information is coming together re obesity it is quite amazing looking back at the conclusions drawn.
1. Many obese poeople were also suffering from a number of "socalled" lifestyle diseases (diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, strokes to mention a few) more than their non-obese counterparts. So it was decided that obesity was the cause and people were self-harming. My poor mother has suffered from medical neglect all her life. "if you are not willing to loose that weight...how on earth are we expected to help you?" And she isn't nearly as obese as some people are now.
2. But there were still quite a number of non-obese people also suffering from these ailments and that wasn't questioned. "Just one of the mysteries of life - they must be blessed with an overactive metabolism -ie they are still stuffing themselves with all that unhealthy food but not getting fat from it".
3. And of course there were a number of obese people not (yet?) presenting with these ailments "a time-bomb waiting to explode".
You would think that obesity being another disease actually jumps out at you. So number one should read: Many people suffering from a number of chronic conditions also suffer from obesity. Hence obesity must be another condition???? With some "lucky" sufferers escaping THAT curse!
Hopefully it will not take long for people to make the leap: what do obese people and non-obese sufferers of these mysterious ailments have in common ????
Cell Wall Deficient Bacteria! As tragic as THAT diagnosis is I think it will bring a lot of relief to people who have been beating themselves up for a very long time. Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Joyful
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 05:26 |
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Inge, I whole heartedly agree!
To blame the sufferer is too common a tactic used by doctors who are unable to resolve their patients ailments with some scribbles on a piece of paper. When I read the quotes of doctor's words to patients I can be pretty upset at such wounding comments.
A correct diagnosis of intracellular CWD infection leading to Th1 disease would give both hope and a road to recovery for their patients. The sooner these concepts become main-stream, the better!
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Lyme Babs Bart - 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 - cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium - rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home - 25D17 Jul08
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 05:41 |
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Joyful...do you think the Western economy will survive the transition? Imagine how many businesses will hit the wall when Obesity emerges as a curable disease? Inge
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Moxie
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 06:16 |
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When I visited an endocrinologist who specialises in "obesity" I was told that the research shows we (obese people) understate our food intake by 40%. I sat opposite him and asked him if he was calling me a liar?? He rather sheepishly looked away and didn't answer. His solution was to offer me Modifast shakes and I just sat there with an appalled look on my face. How on earth could this 'food' help me to lose weight? What happens when I went back onto 'real food'?
Oh well you just eat lots of Greek type salads with olive oil and greens and low fat cheese etc. Well that type of food is what I have been eating all my life and became obese on!!
I was really shocked that this so called 'expert' could only offer this solution. I could stay in hospital for a few weeks and they could deliver the shakes for me and make sure I didn't cheat and I could swim in the heated chlorine pool every day.
I reluctantly tried the shakes and lost 3kg over 4 months and then got over it!! I believe in eating REAL food and this little exercise finally made me realise that something else was happening in my body that has nothing to do with food.
I put the 'whip' away and contine to eat low carb and include wonderful grass fed beef and lamb from a farmer I know and accept the fact this is the way I am at this point in time.....
Moxie
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CFS 25 years - FMS. Benicar 3 daily - Ph 2 16/5/05 - Ph 3 10/5/06 Metformin 500mg 1/2 bd. Vit D 45nmol/L (18ng/ml) 1,25 D 92pmol/L (38.3pg/ml)
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IngeD
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 08:40 |
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Agree Moxie. I don't argue that healthy living improves things but do agree that obesity is not an obvious proof of someone eating the wrong foods. Or TOO MUCH for that matter!
I have a close relative who eats ONLY fast foods (mainly McDonalds) and NEVER exercises (drives a cab) and drinks and smokes. He is close to 50 and so far shows no symptoms of any of the degenerative diseases associated with that lifestyle. He is skinny and looks fit. I doubt that the eats 40% less calories than I do!
Now I am not advocating that it is GOOD to live like that but over the years it has made me wonder if we really understand what makes people obese! Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Dr Trevor Marshall
Research Team
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Posted: Mon Oct 8th, 2007 12:27 |
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The results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA failed to show any causal link between a healthy lifestyle and reduced obesity:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030
For three years, schoolchildren participated in a massive randomized intervention program, designed to examine the effects of a change in dietary intake, an increase in physical activity, classroom curriculum focused on healthy eating and lifestyle, and a family involvement program. In the end, there was no difference in the adipose composition of the two groups, there was no causal link found between lifestyle and obesity. "The primary aim of the study was to reduce the rate of body fat gain in intervention schools, documented by a significant difference in the rate for the control schools after 3 years. This goal was not reached, and %BodyFat in both groups was essentially identical at the end of the intervention period"
The recent UK study amongst preschoolers also failed to show any causal link between lifestyle and obesity.
http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7577/1041
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Moxie
Guest
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Posted: Tue Oct 9th, 2007 10:56 |
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Trevor
I read the links you provided on obesity and children and found it interesting that in the link below they don't actually state what the children ate only that they reduced their fat intake to less than 30% of their dietary intake. I happen to think that some fats are very healthy and essential and wonder if these kids were served low fat yogurts and milk etc. which are not very satiating and are usually loaded with salt. As usual the devil is in the detail??
The results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA failed to show any causal link between a healthy lifestyle and reduced obesity:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030
Moxie
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CFS 25 years - FMS. Benicar 3 daily - Ph 2 16/5/05 - Ph 3 10/5/06 Metformin 500mg 1/2 bd. Vit D 45nmol/L (18ng/ml) 1,25 D 92pmol/L (38.3pg/ml)
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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 18:23 |
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Check out this article that was just published in the New York Times. It describes the mistakes that led doctors to believe there is a connection between fat intake and heart disease when in reality there is little evidence to support the notion.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
I've updated the article about obesity on my website Bacteriality to include a mention of this article and the one about preschool children in Scotland not responding to a diet/exercise intervention program. Plus a few more observations based on discussions in this thread.
http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/09/obesity/
I do have a few questions. Clearly diet and exercise do have some impact on weight. Over the past month or so I've gained 10 pounds (I was a little too thin before) by eating a lot more food (also high fat foods). I know a lot of people who lose weight if they go to the gym regularly.
So how do we include cases like these into the model of obesity? What I feel is that people who don't have a lot obesity causing bacteria can adjust weight by diet and exercise, but once people have a high enough bacterial load dietary changes are no longer able to make a big impact anymore?
I guess what I'm saying is that a healthy person might be able to control their weight to some extent through diet and exercise, but once they accumulate enough bacteria they lose this ability?
Thanks,
Amy
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 19:19 |
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Hi Ames. Interesting questions. I lost a fair bit of weight last year but it took all my focus. I walked for hours every day and watched what I ate. I think it is a given that we could starve ourselves to death if we stopped eating...so...yes there is a link with food. However all that exercise and dieting and weight loss didn't do anything to drop my blood pressure. Or to fix my chronic health issues. And had I not started the MP and NOT kept up that extreme pace, the weight would have piled back on.
Maybe if you are totally healthy you would not have to worry about weight at all. Somehow your appitite would be regulated to eat what you need and your metabolism would be in a good state and make sure you didn't put on weight.
The fact that so many struggle with weight and have to watch it like a hawk may well be due that there are more sick people around than we think?
One theory put forward by an author on obesity is that chronic disease (due to CWD bacteria) effects cortisol and hormone levels which in turn cause obesity AND the illnesses commonly associated with obesity. Be good to get Trevor to give an explanation. Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Ames
Member in Phase 3
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 19:37 |
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I think you're right. I agree that people who are healthy seem to naturally have few problems with weight and no matter what they eat their bodies accomodate.
And you are right that at this point nearly everyone has L-form bacteria and nearly everyone is beginning to reach a stage where these pathogens interfere with weight homeostasis.
I guess I was just thinking about my sister. She seems to have a pretty low bacterial load. She spends half the year in Italy where she pretty much just goes for it and eats whatever she wants. She'll gain about 20 pounds. Then when she comes back to the states she starts eating less and going to the gym again. In about three weeks she's lost all the weight and it stays off. So I guess I was just pointing out that if you stuff yourself with food at some point you will gain some weight.
However, i feel the vast vast majority of people who are fat DON'T do this. On the contrary, they are always worried about weight and dieting all the time. People assume they binge at night or somthing, anything to keep up their stereotypes about fat people, but this isn't true at all.
As you will see in my article definitely feel that bacteria are what are causing the obesity epidemic. The vast majority of people have lost the ability to control their weight and that's the huge problem.
Best.
Amy
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CFS/FMS/osteopenia/severe insomnia Non -MP meds: Gabitril (16 mg),Trazodone (150 mg),Tramadol (20 mg) for pain. Light: Noirs (outside and bright lights), thick layers, sunscreen
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Moxie
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Posted: Thu Oct 11th, 2007 23:48 |
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Yes I agree with that Ames. I work a lot with food - particularly fermented or cultured foods and see many people who are not really well. I have done a lot of research into food and food myths e.g. cholesterol, low fat foods etc and promote the use of REAL food not processed or refined or tampered with food e.g. low fat yogurt etc.
But there are lots of people who cannot lose weight - period. Like myself years ago on an Atkins diet I struggled to get into any form of ketosis and if I did, I didn't lose weight. Some years ago I could manage some weights at gym and they couldn't work out why I kept on cannibalising my muscle instead of rebuilding as one is supposed to do with weights. I believe that is because of chronic infection.
One of my friends who has an inflammatory disease - asthma - is currently on a protein adequate carbohydrate controlled/careful diet and is just not losing weight at all. She feels better and has more energy but her weight is just not budging.
But then you hear about some celebrity that has been on the say Eat Right for your Blood Type and loses weight easily. I believe that person has a very healthy body - that is probably how they became a celebrity in the first place - and they can just tweak it a little with any type of food manipulation.
So that's my theory but there are less of those healthy bodies walking around and more of us!!
Moxie
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CFS 25 years - FMS. Benicar 3 daily - Ph 2 16/5/05 - Ph 3 10/5/06 Metformin 500mg 1/2 bd. Vit D 45nmol/L (18ng/ml) 1,25 D 92pmol/L (38.3pg/ml)
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Joyful
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 04:52 |
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I don't know if I could make any correlations between "bacterial load" and the body's ability to maintain normal weight. I believe I have plenty of bacterial load, but my body still regulates it's weight reasonably well.
Perhaps it is related to a particular bacterial "mix"? Or how much damage to the endocrine organs has occurred? Or maybe something else we haven't thought of yet?
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Lyme Babs Bart - 125D50 Ph1Jul07 ModPh2Sep07 Ph2Feb08 Ph3Aug08 - cal/mag lysine hydroxyzine valium - rarely leave house NoIRs cover up low lux home - 25D17 Jul08
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IngeD
Advocate
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 05:25 |
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| Hi Joyful. I reckon it is due to the fact that with Th1 we don't all have the same issues or diseases. All of us struggle with different symptoms so it is probably that in some people an area is damaged that impacts weight control and metabolism and others have different issues. Just my opinion. Inge.
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Rickettsiosis per neurop chron bronch adhesions IBS pre-diabetes HTN 125D51 Ph1Jan07 25D26.4(Dec06) 25D12.8 (Jun07) 25D8.4 (Jun08) Valium NoIRs limited outings covered lo lux home Ph3
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Jeff
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 05:42 |
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A long time ago, I caught a snippet of an "X-File" episode that really stunned me. It was about a bacteria that would rapidly infect human hosts, raise their body temperatures to exceeding 110F, turn them into zombies of a sort, and take control over them. These unfortunate victims remained ambulatory, were always sweating profusely and the bacterial colony parasitizing them would even speak (intelligently) utilizing the hosts vocal cords. This concept struck me as a reasonable possibility: that a colony of bacteria might act more or less as a single entity with a singular volition. While wholly "taking over" a host as portrayed would be unlikely, exerting influence in subtle ways might not be so far fetched. By the way, this was before I was ill(or at least before I knew I was ill). Many, many years later I learned that my recent "anger period" might be referred to as "Lyme Rage" and ever since then I wonder who it really is that is running the(my) show.
Now to the bacteria/obesity question: Considering that we have a variety of bacteria colonies in our guts, it might be that the divergent voices/divergent desires of our inhabitants tend to dampen one another. Colony "A" wants to go left but Colony "B" would like to go right. Their net collective influence on host behavior is zero since their opposite forces tend to cancel each other out. But what about the possibility that our collective of bacteria symbionts might be able to agree on some kind host behavior modification that all would benefit from, even enjoy? Like say, developing a taste for sugar and folic acid sandwiches? For what it's worth, There time in my life when, I was getting very ill but did not know it and thought my gradually developing symtoms were due to stress, normal aging, and normal overwork fatigue. At some point during this period I was aware that I was eating more. Prior to this, my habit had been to eat just enough to satisfy my hunger, - to stop "when I was full". Now I was reaching the feeling of being full and deliberately eating more, just for pleasure. This was unusual for me and and I rapidly gained about 25 pounds. Was it "me" who chose to do this, my little buddies down there (or did the Devil make me do it?)
Anyway, I think the question of the possible influence our "fellow travelers" might have on our eating habits is interesting especially considering the unprecedentedly wide latitude of choice we have in the western industrialized nations. Our freedom to choose to eat whenever we want, whatever we want, and as much as we want may make the minor push of "our guys" desiring their sugar fix or the like manifest in more major ways.
Jeff
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Lyme/neuro Parkinson's 125D41 Ph1Sep07 Ph2 Mar08 Ph3 May08 NoIRs coverup 2h lite daily driving D25<7 May08
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Julia
Board Staff
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 08:48 |
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Good one, Jeff, but I don't really think the little beasties have a collective mind, though it might seem like it at times 
Isn't it simply that in many of us, the CWD bacteria have attacked the area of the brain responsible for metabolic control?
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Sarc dx Apr.03, uveitis/hypercalcaemia/ankle osteoarthritis/eczema. MP May04. 25D June08:9.6. Not now avoiding light; glasses for sun only. Life is good! Julia's story
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Scarab
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Posted: Fri Oct 12th, 2007 11:39 |
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Even though the beasties may 'not have a collective mind', I have no doubt after reading this transcript that they are more than capable of acting so.
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s2050191.htm
This is the link to an article on Aus TV, posted in the autism forum recently, that describes how the toxoplasma parasite is apparently able, not just to access the area of the amygdala in rats that controls the fear response, but does it so precisely as to only effect the specific area that controls fear of cats -nothing else.
If a tiny parasite can do that I have no doubt that colonies of bacteria are more than capable of changing eating habits to ensure they get exactly what they need from our diet. It could sure explain binge eating chocolate (or sugar and folic acid sandwiches) to me.
alex
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Sarc Aug06|CFS June90| Avoid light&D NoIRs Beni40mg q6h Sept06 mino Sept06| Aug06 1,25D-57.5 25D-20 Apr07 25D-5 Apr08 25D-4| Aug 07 2% NoIRs outside only, Average 30mins per day outside K&16% zinc.
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