The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Some Bacteria make you Fat, some Thin
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The Marshall Protocol Study Site > PROF. MARSHALL'S PERSPECTIVE > Prof. Marshall's Perspective > Some Bacteria make you Fat, some Thin |
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| Moderated by: Dr Trevor Marshall | ||
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team 
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Some of you may have noticed my recent citation of several papers from Jeffrey Gordon's lab canvassing the topic of obesity, and how gut microbiota (bacterial flora) seem to be involved in whether we get fat (or get thin, or stay 'normal'). "Fat people harbour 'fat' microbes" http://www.bioedonline.org/news/news.cfm?art=3017 and "An obesity-associated gut microbiome with increased capacity for energy harvest" http://tinyurl.com/2rfrzp PMID: 17183312 Well, this week I had an abstract accepted for presentation at an upcoming conference, Metagenomics 2007, and as the moderators were browsing through the conference website, Janet noticed that Jeffrey Gordon had spoken at the same conference last year, and that the video of that presentation was still online.  The video "It's So Nice to Have a Few Trillion Friends: Exploring the Structure and Functions of Our Human Gut Microbiota and Microbiome, Jeffrey I. Gordon, Washington University of St. Louis" is at http://rpvss.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/calit2/metagenomics/gordon.rm This is a "MUST SEE" video. Please put aside 32 minutes of your time to watch it. You will come away with a new appreciation for the bacteria which live in symbiosis with Homo sapiens. And as an added bonus, there is a video where W. Ford Doolittle, of Dalhousie University (Canada), argues against the concept of Bacterial species altogether. Another 'must see.' http://rpvss.ucsd.edu:8080/ramgen/calit2/metagenomics/doolittle.rm Note particularly the "agreement to disagree" during the question and answer session of this latter video. This frank exchange of scientific concepts is something I sorely miss when I am in Clinical Medicine circles, where the instinct is to suppress any thought which conflicts with what one supposes to be 'the consensus'.  So where does Th1 disease come into all this? Well, as you know, the VDR is blocked by the Th1 pathogens to protect themselves from the beta-Defensin and Cathelicidin anti-microbial peptides. Yet these same Defensins are key to controlling the flora in the small intestine (recall the earlier video about Crohn's disease for more info). I don't think I need to remind anybody that the GI tract seems to be abnormal in just about every member of our cohort Previously I have noted that, dependent on the infectious history of an individual, the microbiota they are carrying around (the 'pea soup') varies from individual to individual. Additionally, many of the Th1 co-infections are firmicutes, in any case. Finally, right at the end of the video, Jeffrey discloses that they were able to take bacterial flora from obese mice, and use them to infect 'normal' mice, turning the normals obese in the process. Oh what a can of worms this opens up... |
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Julia Member in Phase 3 
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Please could we start a swap shop? Someone take my fat bacteria and I'll take their thin ones? ...I wish  Who knows, maybe some day instead of gastric bypass ops, we'll have a Gastro-Intestinal Biofloral Bacterial Exchange Regimen for the Institution of Self Healing (GIBBERISH)  |
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LeAnne Member in Phase 3 
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I remember when I first started the protocol that I made mention of bacteria being stored in fat. I remember reading about it along time ago. I am going on a diet. AhhhhLeAnne |
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Frans Member in Phase 2 
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Trevor, the first (simple) question that pops into my mind is: In which class do we put probiotics (we have all sorts of drinks containing 'good' bacteria here in holland) ? Fermicutes or bacteroidetes? Sincerely, Frans |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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The bigger question is how probiotics disturb the balance, not which class they go into. You will note in Jeffrey's presentation that transplanting the Zebra fish bacteria into the mice changed the balance of the bacterial species. It is not as simple as "popping a pill." IMO that is because the effect of the probiotics will change depending on how your innate immune system is able to respond to the probiotic, and the microbiota already there. And that depends on the state of your Th1 infection.... |
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Russ Member in Phase 3 
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So if innate immunity is functioning properly then taking probiotics might help by triggering innate immunity to go after some of the bad guys living in the gut. Whereas in advanced TH1 disease, where innate immunity has basically been shut down, probiotics will not have the same benefit. Is that kind of what you're thinking? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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no, Russ, I am thinking that if innate immunity is functioning correctly then the human body can get by quite well without any flora in the gut. Maybe there will be 20% less conversion of fibre, etc, but I suspect we would just eat more and the undigested fibre would reduce constipation I am not convinced that any of the microbiota are essential for health. I am still looking for evidence of benefit, I don't see it. The bugs help us grow old, they help us get ill. Maybe there are offsetting positives. I just haven't found any yet Folk who think they are healthy (but remember everybody is carrying some sort of mix of microbiota) might feel some benefit from using probiotics, but since all they are doing is making their innate immune system work a little harder, I am not sure there is any long-term benefit to be gained from probiotics. Of course, the whole population is currently carrying a heavy load of pathogens, so it is not possible to actually test any of this out just yet... but in a few more years.. |
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wrotek Member in Phase 3 
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I tried to watch but they are downloading so slowly. So i downloaded, but files where glitching, sudden sound speeding were present and video coding errors. Perhaps if anybody has these files downloaded and are fine, send me please on my gmail so i could put them on video.google.com for better performance. wrotekmaciej[nospam}@gmail.com . Cut the files in half (less than 30MB segments)using winrar. Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2007 17:04 by wrotek |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Wrotek, They are RealVideo files with multiple bps streams embedded. You have to use a player that is capable of mixing the streams correctly. Real Player works fine, of course, as does Real Alternative (with some minor difficulties). The only way to download a decent RTSP stream is to use "Streambox VCR beta 31-turbo" |
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wrotek Member in Phase 3
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Thank You, i used flashget to download them and it took me 2 hours, very slow. And i use real alternative for viewing. I will try second software. |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3 
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I see the future of commercial scientists producing and marketing a "fat pill". But even more important, if the firmicutes are the CWD pathogens we've discussed on this blog and as the reference to Wikipedia has implied, we've found another name for the same enemy. And if we can tie it in with "main stream science" and make people understand, we are making progress. Sherry |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Sherry, I included a link to Prof Doolittle, arguing that species are irrelevant, in the first message of this topic. 'Firmicutes' is a pretty broad brush, certainly inclusive of many of the recognized L-form 'species', but I would emphasize that 94% of the 'species' that Jeff's group found were not able to be identified. So it's sort of groping around in the dark, at the species level. At the level of "pea soup" it has now been shown that 'transplanting' the pea-soup from ob/ob mice to sterile mice caused those to also become obese. What was in that pea soup is probably less important at this point, rather the key is that one's infective microbiota can influence one's weight. Which we all sorta knew before, but now our hunch is backed by some science |
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Ames Board Staff 
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Trevor, Fascinating video. How awesome that you will be at the conference this year. A few things: 1. When Mr. Gordon is talking about how gut microbes are selected, he says that bacterial colonization happens at birth and that the environment inside the uterus is sterile. With what we know about L form bacteria persisting from generation to generation would you say this conclusion is incorrect? 2. I’m also interested that they were able to create what they believe are germ free zebrafish and mice. Do you think the specimens really were 100% germ free? If so, how did they kill off L form bacteria? 3. I’m one of those people who can eat whatever they want and not gain weight. I eat about 2500- 3000 calories a day, usually many more than my boyfriend who is nearly twice my weight. I also have had pretty minimal gut IP so far. My digestion has yet to go awry in any way. I wonder the fact that it’s hard to me to gain weight implies that I might not have deal with a very large amt of gut IP…that would be nice! LeeAnne, you mention killing bacteria in fat cells, but the impression I get is that to stay thin it’s not really a matter of killing the bacteria our fat cells, but killing the bacteria in our gut which regulate the ability of our genes to store energy in adipose tissue. And Julia…in my mind the fat pills you speak of would essentially be MP antibiotics, which target and kill our obesity inducing bacteria, leaving us with a composition of flora in our guts that makes it much easier not to put on weight. We are going to be a svelte bunch! Last edited on Fri Jun 15th, 2007 21:55 by Ames |
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Julia Member in Phase 3
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And Julia…in my mind the fat pills you speak of would essentially be MP antibiotics, which target and kill our obesity inducing bacteria, leaving us with a composition of flora in our guts that makes it much easier not to put on weight. I wish, Amy. But three and a half years of MP leave me more obese than ever. Not that I'm blaming the MP (much of my problem is not being able to exercise), just saying it hasn't worked in that way for me . Yet. Ever hopeful...I wasn't thinking of pills so much as a treatment to remove the 'fat' bacteria and replace them with a culture of 'thin' ones. (Or vice versa, for you, you infuriating girl, because you're able to eat anything and not put on weight. Grrr.) Julia  |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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the environment inside the uterus is sterile The reason the metagenomic teams haven't made a real medical breakthrough is that they are not adequately skilled in a number of clinical areas we stumbled into. We had the necessity to understand Borrelia, for instance, which has been shown to be transmitted during pre-natal gestation. So we have a slightly different view of things to Jeff |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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remove the 'fat' bacteria and replace them with a culture of 'thin' ones Julia, I think this will happen automatically as your innate immune system fully recovers. Ultimately you will be making the antimicrobial peptides under control of hormonal feedback from the GI tract, rather than being overwhelmed by the signals from the infected phagocytes. I suspect that the full complement of antimicrobial peptides will allow effective culling of the nasties. Many folk on the MP are thin, and some go through thinning periods. But weight fluctuates, and I suspect will not totally normalize until the body totally returns to full health. At that point, 'the world's your oyster'... and we will probably continue to break paradigms as we develop knowledge about 'healthy aging'... |
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CJ Member in Phase 3
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I am definatly going through a "thinning period". I have recently lost most all of the fat I put on from my last bout of steroids ( 5-6 years ago) . My weight was 115, I'd have to guess I'm 100lbs now. I don't keep a scale. I hope this means something good. I don't much like being this thin. I am feeling well energy-wise.I haven't had severe gut IP. But I definatly have had major turn around in intestinal problems since begining the MP. Thank goodness. Last edited on Sun Jun 17th, 2007 03:33 by CJ |
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jasmine Member in Phase 3 
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Hi CJ, I am just starting the MP, and have been experiencing a "thinning period" as well for the last year or so. I live in Michigan as well, and am looking for a doctor that is willing to help me succeed on the MP. Do you have any recommendations? Sincerely, Jasmine |
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Sue from St. Louis Member in Phase 2 
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I've lost 30 pounds without dieting since I went off Pred. on Nov. 16, 2006 and onto the Marshall Protocol. I've had a weight problem since I was 5 following removal of my tonsils and adenoids. This discussion is fascinating. How great it would be to eat like everyone else and not gain weight. Sue from St. Louis |
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Adrianne Member in Phase 3 
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Wow, all of this information is incredible! Or I should say, very credible! This explains why I have such a difficult time losing weight even if I do all the things recommended for weight loss. I am always very careful about diet, concentrating on vegetables, fruits, lean meats, nuts and seeds and I eat mostly whole grain carbs and avoid sugars and refined carbs. I choose organic foods whenever available. Prior to the MP I was doing a very intense exercise program, involving both aerobic and weight-training exercises. In several months time of almost daily exercise, I lost only about three pounds. I comforted myself by thinking that it was because I was building muscle. Anyway, I am so happy that, finally, there are some answers out there and that I am on the right track with the MP. Thank you, Trevor. I am no longer discouraged about the seven pounds I've gained since starting the MP because I am busy killing the bugs that are at the root of the problem! |
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jean uk inactive member 
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I am 14 stone which is obese for my 5ft 2" frame GP prescribed xenical are these allowed on the MP Jean UK |
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Foundation Staff . 
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Xenical (orlistat) works primarily in the intestines but a small amount is absorbed systemically. It is touted to cause weight loss by preventing fat absorption. However, a low-fat diet must be consumed in order to prevent diarrhea and fecal incontinence. Thus, the weight loss could be attributed to diet alone. IMO, a low carb diet would be a safer alternative while you are recovering your health (and a normal weight) on the MP. |
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Sue from St. Louis Member in Phase 2
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Meg, Did you have a weight problem before MP? Can you deliniate the specific CNS symptoms you expereinced while on MP? Where they the same or different from the symp. when you were diagnosed? Sue from St. Louis |
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Foundation Staff .
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I had a weight problem for many years prior to the MP. Here is a 'before and after' picture. I had unilateral tibial neuropathy (nerve dysfunction) that presented with altered sensation, severe calf muscle cramps and severe atrophy of my left foot extending up to my midcalf. Immunopathology manifested as an exacerbation of these symptoms. You will find a detailed report in MARSHALL PROTOCOL SUCCESS STORIES |
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Sue from St. Louis Member in Phase 2
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WOW! There's hope for me to stay thin when this is all over. Thanks for the pictures. Sue |
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IngeD Moderator 
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Hi Sue. My story is nothing as tremendous as Meg's but I thought I would mention to you that last year I walked at least 2 hours every day and managed to loose a fair bit of weight. Had to give up all that walking on the MP and I was really worried that I would pile the weight back on. Well...first couple of months I lost 4 kg when I changed to a totally low carb diet. Then I slackened on my carbs and quite a few crept back in and I regained the 4 kilos. Now....after a month or so of going back onto the low carb eating I have shed those 4 and 3 others. So...all in all...without any exercise and leading a very sedentary lifestyle...I managed to loose 7 kg in 5 months. It's early days but I am hopeful to follow in the footsteps of those amazing people in those photos! Just follow Meg's advise. You'll do well! Inge. |
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Sue from St. Louis Member in Phase 2
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Thank you all for the feedback. Sue |
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wrotek Member in Phase 3
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Do regulatory T Cells Contribute to Th1 Skewness in Obesity?Svec P, Vásárhelyi B, Pászthy B, Körner A, Kovács L, Tulassay T, Treszl A.1Research Group of Pediatrics and Nephrology, Hungarian Academy of Sciences, Budapest, Hungary. BACKGROUND: Recent data suggest that an increased prevalence of interferon-gamma (IFN-gamma) producing CD4 (+) cells is present in obesity. Regulatory T cells (Tregs) have a strong impact on activation and proliferation of CD4 (+) lymphocytes. Data are not available about Tregs and their possible contribution to chronic mild inflammation in obesity. DESIGN: We investigated the prevalence of Tregs in obese children. We also collected data about dendritic cells and monocytes (so-called antigen presenting cells, APCs), important modulators of Tregs and we determined the cytokine production of CD4 (+) lymphocytes, the main target cells of Tregs. METHODS: Twelve obese children and 10 healthy age-matched controls have been enrolled. For flow cytometric analyses, peripheral blood mononuclear cells were used. We determined the prevalence of Tregs by Foxp3 expression of CD4 (+) cells; prevalence of myeloid and plasmacytoid dendritic cells (DCs); prevalence of tumor necrosis factor (TNF)-alpha and interleukin(IL)-12 producing monocytes; and prevalence of IL-2, IL-4 and IFN-gamma producing CD4 (+) cells. RESULTS: The prevalence of Tregs, DCs, TNF-alpha and IL-12 producing macrophages, IL-2 and IFN-gamma producing CD4 (+) cells was similar in both groups. The prevalence of IL-4 producing CD4 (+) cells was lower in obese children than in healthy controls (p=0.028). The ratio of IFN-gamma (+)/ IL-4 (+) CD4 (+) cells was higher in obese children than in those with normal weight (p=0.046). CONCLUSIONS: CD4 (+) reactions are polarized toward Th1 direction in obesity. The unaltered number of Treg and APCs suggests that these immune regulator cells do not contribute to altered immune status in obese children. PMID: 17647141 [PubMed - in process] Last edited on Thu Jul 26th, 2007 10:42 by wrotek |
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vwitcher Member in Phase 2/3
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Speaking of gut bacteria: in doing some research on vitamin sources, I read that some vitamins (pyridoxine, biotin, vitamin K) are produced by gut bacteria in addition to being ingested. This brought a couple of questions to mind: 1. Would we suffer deficiencies in these if all gut bacteria were eliminated; and 2. Could this vitamin production by gut bacteria have been "hijacked" by harmful bugs for motives yet undiscovered, as 1,25D is by CWD's? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Would we suffer deficiencies in these if all gut bacteria were eliminated We almost have enough data to answer this question, but not quite definitively. My current gut feeling is no - the bacteria may be helpful in several ways, but the human body will adapt to their absence. We will have a full answer in another year or two. The answer will come when more folk on the MP get to full recovery (their own innate immune systems working again) yet they are still taking prophylactic antibiotics (which no longer produce immunopathology). These folk will have no, or very little, gut flora. The few of us in that situation right now are not needing supplements, so it seems the body has adjusted. However, these days, Vitamin K is in candy bars and breakfast cereals, so it is questionable where the healthy body would get its supplies from anyway (as, speaking for myself, I eat all sorts of food these days...). |
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Joyful Board Staff 
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In the topic What kind of probiotics should I use? Dr. Marshall explains that the function of probiotics appears to be via stimulation of the innate immune system in the gut. Normally anything that stimulates the innate immune system would be contraindicated for the MP. This seems to be an area where the best approach is to only use probiotics if they are helping to palliate intolerable symptoms. But then some will ask, what probiotics are the best choice when you are needing their help? Some of the strains mentioned on the MP Probiotics topic are: Lactobacillus acidophilus, L. bulgaricus, L. reuteri, L. plantarum, L. casei, B. bifidus, S. salivarius, and S. thermophilus and the yeast Saccharomyces boulardii. Looking around, it is easy to see that there are many types of probiotics developed to help with various issues. And if you don't want to pop a pill, you can use cultured foods such as yogurt or live sauerkraut to increase your gut's acidophilus population. One of type of probiotic sold OTC in Germany, mentioned in the video Dr. Marshall posted here, even comes from the gut of the one army guy who didn't die from diarrhea in 1917! Escherichia coli strain nissle 1917 is the most studied probiotic strain of E. coli. Its name is derived from the fact that it was isolated from a World War I soldier who survived a particularly severe outbreak of diarrhea. Also, there are some new fermented or cultured products on the supplement market such as this one that states: "The ingredient to be investigated was an end product of fermentation of baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae)." and makes the following claim "Novel Immune System Enhancer Strengthens Microbial and Mutagenic Defense" (product name, epicor). Another fermented product is this one that again makes great claims to be a "very strong immune enhancer" (product name, omx12+). They also make the claim: The most important strain of lactic acid bacteria in OMX 12+ Probiotic Formula may be the proprietary TH 10 strain developed by Dr. Ohhira from the Malaysian food delicacy -Tempeh. TH 10 has been proven effective in vitro against the most virulent pathogens including the MRSA (Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) superbug, E coli-157, H. pylori (the cause of peptic ulcers). Each capsule of OMX 12+ Probiotic Formula contains several billion live lactic acid bacteria that are 6.25 times stronger than any other intestinal bacteria known to microbiologists. My question is this... Are these (highly priced) fermented products really any different from the other probiotics? Aren't they all stimulating the innate immune system? Last edited on Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 02:16 by Joyful |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Joyful, I personally had a very diseased gut until about year 5 into the MP. Bloating, pain, and a host of other symptoms were a constant nuisance. I never found any probiotic to be any use in reducing those symptoms, and I did try a number of probiotics over the years. Based on how I think probiotics work (increasing the work to be done by the innate immune system in the GI tract) I suspect that any palliative actions would come at the cost of healing elsewhere in the body. But I have no data, and the studies I have seen were all based on a flawed disease model, and therefore of no real help. |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Thank you Dr. Marshall. Your suspicion that any palliative actions of the probiotics come at the cost of healing elsewhere in the body seems like something that should be seriously considered when choosing whether to use probiotics or not. Another thought I had was about the claim: "proven effective in vitro against ... MRSA," and your previous comments about how little the in vitro work shows about what actually happens in a real human body. There may not be data, and the existing studies may be based on a flawed disease model, but I know that this developing Th1 disease model provides the right set of "spectacles" to see new truth in places no one else has thought to look.  Last edited on Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 07:58 by Joyful |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Joyful, Remember that the secret of success on the MP is being able to keep the immunopathology to a tolerable level for as long as it takes to kill off the bacteria. So there is a role for palliation. There is no need to keep the pedal flat-to-the-floor, this is an endurance race, not a sprint |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Thank you. Funny how we need permission to be kind to ourselves during the process. Funny how the healing requires both killing and the removal of the dead. The car must have both a gas pedal and a brake pedal. Not to mention the steering wheel (moderators) and --for when all else fails--that emergency brake! |
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Moxie Member in Phase 2/3 
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I am trying to get my head around the fact that if Vitamin D is stored in the fat of the animal and I have managed to get rid of so much of it, why the heck am I putting on loads of weight?? Initially in the first 12-18 months on MP, I lost 10kg and then after a few months I then put back on 5kg and settled at that weight. Recently I have added another 5kg! Very mysterious. It is certainly not related to what I eat. Would appreciate any feedback on weight. I am interested in this conversation on probiotics and wonder where cultured foods fit in?? I culture many foods e.g. sauerkraut, daikon radish, root vegetables (turnip, beetroot,radish etc) garlic just using basic method of brine with some herbs and leaving on bench top for a couple of days to ferment. Then it needs to go in fridge here in Queensland otherwise it would explode. I use them as a condiment probably consuming up to a cup a day overall. I also use Miso sometimes in the culture or add to soups and stews. These foods are very beneficial for promoting bowel regularity and I think that must be a good thing..... They are certainly cheaper than buying probiotics and much more effective for me.] Moxie (aka the Demented Fermenter) |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Moxie, In 2004, researchers published the results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA. For three years, schoolchildren participated in a massive randomized intervention program, designed to examine the effects of a change in dietary intake, an increase in physical activity, classroom curriculum focused on healthy eating and lifestyle, and a family involvement program. In the end, there was no difference in the adipose composition of the two groups, there was no causal link found between lifestyle and obesity. "The primary aim of the study was to reduce the rate of body fat gain in intervention schools, documented by a significant difference in the rate for the control schools after 3 years. This goal was not reached, and %BodyFat in both groups was essentially identical at the end of the intervention period"There is no study proving a causal link between lifestyle and obesity. We are told "you are what you eat" but that is not true, because it ignores that the appetite might well be controlled by another factor, eg, Th1 disease. At the recent Metagenomics conference, Jeff Gordon's group presented a paper showing that obesity was linked to both gut flora and diet. In particular, certain species of bacteria seemed to be encouraged by high fat or high carb diets. In turn, those species all interact with the rest of the flora to determine the efficiency of digestion. I might say "you are what is eating you" but that would be too flippant Caballero B, Clay T, Davis SM, Ethelbah B, Rock BH, Lohman T, Norman J, Story M, Stone EJ, Stephenson L, Stevens J; Pathways Study Research Group. Pathways: a school-based, randomized controlled trial for the prevention of obesity in American Indian schoolchildren. Am J Clin Nutr. 2003 Nov;78(5):904-5. http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030 |
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IngeD Moderator
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Hi Moxie. Home made fermented food sounds so delicious! I thought I would add my tuppence worth to the probiotic discussion. I was told by a specialist looking after my bowels (adhesions / ibs issues) over the years to avoid probiotics because they had not been proven scientifically beneficial however he suggested I could include "pre-biotics" in my diet. Apparently these are things like fermented foods and yoghurt. I think they are more gentle and don't have the massive doses of bacteria present in probiotics. Of course this specialist didn't understand the MP. Just wanted to explain the difference between pro and pre biotics. Inge. |
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Foundation Staff .
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According to this website: Probiotics are beneficial bacteria that can be found in various foods. Common strains include Lactobacillis and Bifidobacterium families of bacteria. Prebiotics are non-digestible foods that make their way through our digestive system and help good bacteria grow and flourish. Prebiotics keep beneficial bacteria healthy. Prebiotics that feed the beneficial bacteria in our gut mostly come from carbohydrate fibers called oligosaccharides. We don't digest them, so the oligosaccharides remain in the digestive tract and stimulate the growth of beneficial bacteria. Sources of oligosaccharides include fruits, legumes, and whole grains. Fructo-oligosaccharides are used as supplements and are added to many foods. Yogurt made with bifidobacteria contain oligosaccharides. Probiotic bacteria like lactobacilli are naturally found in fermented foods like sour kraut and yogurt. Some foods will have added probiotics as healthy nutritional ingredients and this will be evident on the label. |
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jcwat101 Research Professional 
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I have had flare ups of diarrhea due to probiotics supplements containing FOS (fructooligosaccharides) or inulin and this has been reported as contributing to this problem by others. These indigestible prebiotics seem to be able to promote the growth of certain pathogenic bacteria, like Klebsiella and Pseudomonas, in the gut. So, although, I think sometimes a person may find probiotics to be helpful in reducing symptoms of some types, I stay away from the prebiotics. Cellulose or rice powder as filler seem to be safer. PB8 is one I could tolerate -- it may have a little FOS, but of a type and in an amount that was not a problem. The probiotics recommended by the Specific Carbohydrate Diet (SCD) are free of FOS. That diet is used by some people with Crohn's Disease and Ulcerative Colitis. It is particularly interested in providing the least amount of food for the sort of bacteria I mentioned above. They also eliminate sugars and grains and starchy vegetables. I don't eliminate them, but just avoid eating large amounts. Interestingly, I find that probiotics and/or eliminating the grains and sugars increases my immunopathology. Personally, I think it is because some of the above bacteria (or some Firmicutes), produce a substance that is like capnine and blocks the VDR. So reducing their food, increases activation of the VDR for me -- and it is quite a large effect in my case, since these bacteria have been found in my gut in the past. So, if one was already having a lot of immunopathology, and one decided to introduce probiotics or diet change, they would be wise to do it cautiously/gradually to assess the effect. Anyway, if one alters their diet, or stops or starts sugars/grains/certain fibers, this might happen for them too. But, not everyone is likely to be affected the same way -- it is just something that it might be good to be aware of as a possibility when making changes in probiotics or carbs/starches. Joyce Waterhouse PS I have talked about this and related subjects some in my progress report and probably will more in the future: My Progress Report PPS I mentioned the probiotics without FOS that the SCD uses: there are Kirkman Lab’s Lactobacteria acidophilus and GI Prohealth has a Lactobacteria and Jarrow has a Saccharomyces product (you can search online if interested) Last edited on Mon Sep 24th, 2007 00:11 by jcwat101 |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2 
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Throwing out some un-put-together thoughts about bacteria and obesity. I'm not going to draw any links or logical inferences (sorry brain fog), but I think there might be something there. Nexium and drugs like that make people more susceptible to a deadly bacteria because stomach acid is one of our lines of defense against bacteria (at least that was something I read last year) Young kids and adults alike are becoming more obese and many are turning to the use of drugs like Nexium (kid use is currently in the news). I am wondering how likely it is that something like Nexium or other commonly used drugs might be contributing to the increase in obesity of some (either viral or bacterial caused). This would be in addition to to the possibility that abx use could contribute to obesity by creating cell wall deficient bacteria and allowing obesity bacteria flourish (if obesity bacteria are able to become cell wall deficient). It's said (in many of the articles that I've read) that obesity leads to GERD, but I had GERD before I put on additional weight, and I had it bad when I was just at the top of the normal weight scale. I don't attribute my subsequent weight rise to Nexium, as my Nexium use was intermittent--just commenting on the fact that GERD is not necessarily a disease of the fat or even obese. Perhaps that is when most doctors see GERD--that is, when it gets bad enough for the person to see a doctor (or to rise to the level that the person actually notices--I never had heart burn; it was the effect of the GERD on my vocal cords that made me notice I had a problem), maybe the person has gotten fatter between the time the GERD begins and it rises to the level where it's called to a doctor's attention, skewing the studies. At any rate, just something that's been rolling around in my brain that I thought I'd put out there because it seems to me that there could be many other commonly used over the counter and prescription drugs that compromise our immune systems (in ways other than the VDR) besides steroids and abx. Claire |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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IMO, Pre-natal and neo-natal Vitamin D supplementation is probably the most significant factor other than the inappropriate use of Beta-lactam antibiotics. |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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Yes, I would suspect that to be the number one cause given the prevalance of obesity and its surge world wide (particularly the Vit D supplementation--you can't spit a short distance without hitting it). Claire |
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chessa9 Member
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sent pm.. |
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IngeD Moderator
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Now that more information is coming together re obesity it is quite amazing looking back at the conclusions drawn. 1. Many obese poeople were also suffering from a number of "socalled" lifestyle diseases (diabetes, hypertension, heart disease, strokes to mention a few) more than their non-obese counterparts. So it was decided that obesity was the cause and people were self-harming. My poor mother has suffered from medical neglect all her life. "if you are not willing to loose that weight...how on earth are we expected to help you?" And she isn't nearly as obese as some people are now. 2. But there were still quite a number of non-obese people also suffering from these ailments and that wasn't questioned. "Just one of the mysteries of life - they must be blessed with an overactive metabolism -ie they are still stuffing themselves with all that unhealthy food but not getting fat from it". 3. And of course there were a number of obese people not (yet?) presenting with these ailments "a time-bomb waiting to explode". You would think that obesity being another disease actually jumps out at you. So number one should read: Many people suffering from a number of chronic conditions also suffer from obesity. Hence obesity must be another condition???? With some "lucky" sufferers escaping THAT curse! Hopefully it will not take long for people to make the leap: what do obese people and non-obese sufferers of these mysterious ailments have in common ???? Cell Wall Deficient Bacteria! As tragic as THAT diagnosis is I think it will bring a lot of relief to people who have been beating themselves up for a very long time. Inge. |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Inge, I whole heartedly agree! To blame the sufferer is too common a tactic used by doctors who are unable to resolve their patients ailments with some scribbles on a piece of paper. When I read the quotes of doctor's words to patients I can be pretty upset at such wounding comments. A correct diagnosis of intracellular CWD infection leading to Th1 disease would give both hope and a road to recovery for their patients. The sooner these concepts become main-stream, the better! |
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IngeD Moderator
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Joyful...do you think the Western economy will survive the transition? Imagine how many businesses will hit the wall when Obesity emerges as a curable disease? Inge |
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Moxie Member in Phase 2/3
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When I visited an endocrinologist who specialises in "obesity" I was told that the research shows we (obese people) understate our food intake by 40%. I sat opposite him and asked him if he was calling me a liar?? He rather sheepishly looked away and didn't answer. His solution was to offer me Modifast shakes and I just sat there with an appalled look on my face. How on earth could this 'food' help me to lose weight? What happens when I went back onto 'real food'? Oh well you just eat lots of Greek type salads with olive oil and greens and low fat cheese etc. Well that type of food is what I have been eating all my life and became obese on!! I was really shocked that this so called 'expert' could only offer this solution. I could stay in hospital for a few weeks and they could deliver the shakes for me and make sure I didn't cheat and I could swim in the heated chlorine pool every day. I reluctantly tried the shakes and lost 3kg over 4 months and then got over it!! I believe in eating REAL food and this little exercise finally made me realise that something else was happening in my body that has nothing to do with food. I put the 'whip' away and contine to eat low carb and include wonderful grass fed beef and lamb from a farmer I know and accept the fact this is the way I am at this point in time..... Moxie |
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IngeD Moderator
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Agree Moxie. I don't argue that healthy living improves things but do agree that obesity is not an obvious proof of someone eating the wrong foods. Or TOO MUCH for that matter! I have a close relative who eats ONLY fast foods (mainly McDonalds) and NEVER exercises (drives a cab) and drinks and smokes. He is close to 50 and so far shows no symptoms of any of the degenerative diseases associated with that lifestyle. He is skinny and looks fit. I doubt that the eats 40% less calories than I do! Now I am not advocating that it is GOOD to live like that but over the years it has made me wonder if we really understand what makes people obese! Inge. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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The results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA failed to show any causal link between a healthy lifestyle and reduced obesity: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030 For three years, schoolchildren participated in a massive randomized intervention program, designed to examine the effects of a change in dietary intake, an increase in physical activity, classroom curriculum focused on healthy eating and lifestyle, and a family involvement program. In the end, there was no difference in the adipose composition of the two groups, there was no causal link found between lifestyle and obesity. "The primary aim of the study was to reduce the rate of body fat gain in intervention schools, documented by a significant difference in the rate for the control schools after 3 years. This goal was not reached, and %BodyFat in both groups was essentially identical at the end of the intervention period"The recent UK study amongst preschoolers also failed to show any causal link between lifestyle and obesity. http://www.bmj.com/cgi/content/full/333/7577/1041 |
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Moxie Member in Phase 2/3
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Trevor I read the links you provided on obesity and children and found it interesting that in the link below they don't actually state what the children ate only that they reduced their fat intake to less than 30% of their dietary intake. I happen to think that some fats are very healthy and essential and wonder if these kids were served low fat yogurts and milk etc. which are not very satiating and are usually loaded with salt. As usual the devil is in the detail?? The results of lifestyle modification of 1704 children from American Indian Communities in the Southwest USA failed to show any causal link between a healthy lifestyle and reduced obesity: http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full/78/5/1030 Moxie |
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Ames Board Staff
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Check out this article that was just published in the New York Times. It describes the mistakes that led doctors to believe there is a connection between fat intake and heart disease when in reality there is little evidence to support the notion. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/09/science/09tier.html?_r=1&oref=slogin I've updated the article about obesity on my website Bacteriality to include a mention of this article and the one about preschool children in Scotland not responding to a diet/exercise intervention program. Plus a few more observations based on discussions in this thread. http://bacteriality.com/2007/08/09/obesity/ I do have a few questions. Clearly diet and exercise do have some impact on weight. Over the past month or so I've gained 10 pounds (I was a little too thin before) by eating a lot more food (also high fat foods). I know a lot of people who lose weight if they go to the gym regularly. So how do we include cases like these into the model of obesity? What I feel is that people who don't have a lot obesity causing bacteria can adjust weight by diet and exercise, but once people have a high enough bacterial load dietary changes are no longer able to make a big impact anymore? I guess what I'm saying is that a healthy person might be able to control their weight to some extent through diet and exercise, but once they accumulate enough bacteria they lose this ability? Thanks, Amy |
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IngeD Moderator
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Hi Ames. Interesting questions. I lost a fair bit of weight last year but it took all my focus. I walked for hours every day and watched what I ate. I think it is a given that we could starve ourselves to death if we stopped eating...so...yes there is a link with food. However all that exercise and dieting and weight loss didn't do anything to drop my blood pressure. Or to fix my chronic health issues. And had I not started the MP and NOT kept up that extreme pace, the weight would have piled back on. Maybe if you are totally healthy you would not have to worry about weight at all. Somehow your appitite would be regulated to eat what you need and your metabolism would be in a good state and make sure you didn't put on weight. The fact that so many struggle with weight and have to watch it like a hawk may well be due that there are more sick people around than we think? One theory put forward by an author on obesity is that chronic disease (due to CWD bacteria) effects cortisol and hormone levels which in turn cause obesity AND the illnesses commonly associated with obesity. Be good to get Trevor to give an explanation. Inge. |
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Ames Board Staff
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I think you're right. I agree that people who are healthy seem to naturally have few problems with weight and no matter what they eat their bodies accomodate. And you are right that at this point nearly everyone has L-form bacteria and nearly everyone is beginning to reach a stage where these pathogens interfere with weight homeostasis. I guess I was just thinking about my sister. She seems to have a pretty low bacterial load. She spends half the year in Italy where she pretty much just goes for it and eats whatever she wants. She'll gain about 20 pounds. Then when she comes back to the states she starts eating less and going to the gym again. In about three weeks she's lost all the weight and it stays off. So I guess I was just pointing out that if you stuff yourself with food at some point you will gain some weight. However, i feel the vast vast majority of people who are fat DON'T do this. On the contrary, they are always worried about weight and dieting all the time. People assume they binge at night or somthing, anything to keep up their stereotypes about fat people, but this isn't true at all. As you will see in my article definitely feel that bacteria are what are causing the obesity epidemic. The vast majority of people have lost the ability to control their weight and that's the huge problem. Best. Amy |
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Moxie Member in Phase 2/3
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Yes I agree with that Ames. I work a lot with food - particularly fermented or cultured foods and see many people who are not really well. I have done a lot of research into food and food myths e.g. cholesterol, low fat foods etc and promote the use of REAL food not processed or refined or tampered with food e.g. low fat yogurt etc. But there are lots of people who cannot lose weight - period. Like myself years ago on an Atkins diet I struggled to get into any form of ketosis and if I did, I didn't lose weight. Some years ago I could manage some weights at gym and they couldn't work out why I kept on cannibalising my muscle instead of rebuilding as one is supposed to do with weights. I believe that is because of chronic infection. One of my friends who has an inflammatory disease - asthma - is currently on a protein adequate carbohydrate controlled/careful diet and is just not losing weight at all. She feels better and has more energy but her weight is just not budging. But then you hear about some celebrity that has been on the say Eat Right for your Blood Type and loses weight easily. I believe that person has a very healthy body - that is probably how they became a celebrity in the first place - and they can just tweak it a little with any type of food manipulation. So that's my theory but there are less of those healthy bodies walking around and more of us!! Moxie |
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Joyful Board Staff
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I don't know if I could make any correlations between "bacterial load" and the body's ability to maintain normal weight. I believe I have plenty of bacterial load, but my body still regulates it's weight reasonably well. Perhaps it is related to a particular bacterial "mix"? Or how much damage to the endocrine organs has occurred? Or maybe something else we haven't thought of yet? |
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IngeD Moderator
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Hi Joyful. I reckon it is due to the fact that with Th1 we don't all have the same issues or diseases. All of us struggle with different symptoms so it is probably that in some people an area is damaged that impacts weight control and metabolism and others have different issues. Just my opinion. Inge. |
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Jeff Member in Phase 3 
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A long time ago, I caught a snippet of an "X-File" episode that really stunned me. It was about a bacteria that would rapidly infect human hosts, raise their body temperatures to exceeding 110F, turn them into zombies of a sort, and take control over them. These unfortunate victims remained ambulatory, were always sweating profusely and the bacterial colony parasitizing them would even speak (intelligently) utilizing the hosts vocal cords. This concept struck me as a reasonable possibility: that a colony of bacteria might act more or less as a single entity with a singular volition. While wholly "taking over" a host as portrayed would be unlikely, exerting influence in subtle ways might not be so far fetched. By the way, this was before I was ill(or at least before I knew I was ill). Many, many years later I learned that my recent "anger period" might be referred to as "Lyme Rage" and ever since then I wonder who it really is that is running the(my) show. Now to the bacteria/obesity question: Considering that we have a variety of bacteria colonies in our guts, it might be that the divergent voices/divergent desires of our inhabitants tend to dampen one another. Colony "A" wants to go left but Colony "B" would like to go right. Their net collective influence on host behavior is zero since their opposite forces tend to cancel each other out. But what about the possibility that our collective of bacteria symbionts might be able to agree on some kind host behavior modification that all would benefit from, even enjoy? Like say, developing a taste for sugar and folic acid sandwiches? For what it's worth, There time in my life when, I was getting very ill but did not know it and thought my gradually developing symtoms were due to stress, normal aging, and normal overwork fatigue. At some point during this period I was aware that I was eating more. Prior to this, my habit had been to eat just enough to satisfy my hunger, - to stop "when I was full". Now I was reaching the feeling of being full and deliberately eating more, just for pleasure. This was unusual for me and and I rapidly gained about 25 pounds. Was it "me" who chose to do this, my little buddies down there (or did the Devil make me do it?) Anyway, I think the question of the possible influence our "fellow travelers" might have on our eating habits is interesting especially considering the unprecedentedly wide latitude of choice we have in the western industrialized nations. Our freedom to choose to eat whenever we want, whatever we want, and as much as we want may make the minor push of "our guys" desiring their sugar fix or the like manifest in more major ways. Jeff |
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Julia Member in Phase 3
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Good one, Jeff, but I don't really think the little beasties have a collective mind, though it might seem like it at times Isn't it simply that in many of us, the CWD bacteria have attacked the area of the brain responsible for metabolic control? |
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Scarab Member in Phase 3 
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Even though the beasties may 'not have a collective mind', I have no doubt after reading this transcript that they are more than capable of acting so. http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/s2050191.htm This is the link to an article on Aus TV, posted in the autism forum recently, that describes how the toxoplasma parasite is apparently able, not just to access the area of the amygdala in rats that controls the fear response, but does it so precisely as to only effect the specific area that controls fear of cats -nothing else. If a tiny parasite can do that I have no doubt that colonies of bacteria are more than capable of changing eating habits to ensure they get exactly what they need from our diet. It could sure explain binge eating chocolate (or sugar and folic acid sandwiches) to me. alex |
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Moxie Member in Phase 2/3
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Toxoplasmosis is where I started on this long trek (25 year anniversary this month) of chronic ill health - scary little critters aren't they? I don't binge eat anything and probably eat a lot less calories than most people and don't eat processed foods etc. This weight issue is something totally unrelated to food and exercise. For instance, after about 18 months on MP, I lost over a period of time 10 kg without changing diet at all. Was very exciting time. Then after about 7 months, 5kg wandered back on again - no change in diet. After about another 4 months, an extra 5kg appeared. That has not changed now for about 12 months. I seem to have a 'governor' on my weight. It never goes higher than 85kg and I effortlessly lose weight at some times for no particular reason and then effortlessly put it back again. Nothing to do with thyroid function or any other thing that we can put our finger on. The one thing I know for sure is that we know about half a finger nail size of information on obesity. What a complex issue!! Moxie |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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News article "Scientists explain chocolate craving" (has to do with the bacteria in one's gut, as may cravings for other foods, and has implications for obesity): http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071012/ap_on_he_me/diet_chocolate_craving |
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Mainer53 Member
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On the website http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gut_flora#_ref-Schwiertz_1 under the heading Carbohydrate fermentation and absorption they say that biotin and vitamin K (probably the rarer form that is in cheese) are example of nutrients that intestinal flora help us out with. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Mainer, I don't want to 'dump on you' for your first post but Wikipedia is an environment where armchair 'scientists', most of whom have never been in a real research team in their lives, try to piece together knowledge from the fragments available on the Internet. A good researcher, on the other hand, knows that the best science has not been published before, or if it has, the correct conclusions were not drawn. A good researcher has to produce results, not just a good-looking web page based on other people's knowledge (papers).We all have a slightly different GI tract flora, yet some of us are very sick, and some of us think we are well. Schwiertz is working from a hypothesis that flora are necessary for 'Health' but our insights show that there are other things far more important, a complete microbiota that Schwiertz hasn't even dreamed of. Nor has he taken it into account when interpreting his own research results. I have still to see a study which definitively shows that a certain combination of gut flora are necessary for life, or even for Health. The body can adjust to whatever flora is present, to a greater or lesser extent. Sure, changing the gut flora changes one's nutritional intake, and also makes people feel better/worse, but that seem to be because the flora affects the ability of the innate immune system to do its job fighting other pathogens. Indeed, certain combinations of gut flora can be weakly immunosuppressive. If I had to simplify the science for you, I would say - "All that glitters is not gold". Moderator's note: See Understanding Scientific Studies |
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Mainer53 Member
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I am intrigued by your reference to "a complete microbiota." Where can I find out more? There are some excellent posts on this forum. I have just started reading about Cell Wall Deficient bacteria, vitamin A receptors and how they affect innate immune response. Long ago, I read a book which developed a theory on Crohn's disease by a man named Colm O'Morain. He said that granuloma in that disease grow because phagocytes can't digest invaders. He says that phagocytes are a secondary defense and that the primary defense might be disabled by the bacteria. He gives reduced migration rates of neutrophils as the disabling mechanism. Others have linked Crohn's disease with the mycobacterium Paratuberculosis. A woman doing research in Africa thought that the flesh eating mycobacterium Boruli evades immune response by emitting fat based chemicals, which she isolated. I wish I could remember her name. It was from an article in Discover about 10 years ago. The idea was that mycobacteria are fat-based and their signalling is fat-based. Research has been conducted mainly on protein-based bacteria. Vitamin D is a fat based vitamin and I wonder if Crohn's disease, the way mycobacteria evade the immune system and the work being done on Th1 are all related. I find Wikipedia useful as a reference for my electronics technology students. I recommend certain pages to them only after I have reviewed them myself. It is a darned good encyclopedia. I have also found it useful for bootstrapping me into the study of a new subject. I agree that it is not a forum for exchange of research information. |
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Mainer53 Member
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The information I couldn't remember in the last post is on the website http://www.sciencenews.org/pages/sn_arc99/7_17_99/bob1.htm |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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I find Wikipedia useful as a reference for my electronics technology students Indeed, Wikipedia is largely written by electronics technology students. Those who have defaced my work there have been posting to wikipedia using sock usernames claiming to medical students, inter alia. But they are not what they claim to be, and therein lies the real failure of wikipedia - anonymity plays no useful part in science, whether in peer review or in wikis. |
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tickbite Member in Phase 2/3 
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Remember that one kid who got busted as he portrayed himself to be some crazy awesome PhD? He was elevated on Wikipedia as one of the top administrators. Then everyone found out he was just a kid, with no credentials at all and they removed him. Ah, the internet... |
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Julia Member in Phase 3
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It is a darned good encyclopedia Each page of Wikipedia is only as good as the person who wrote it. That means it is a pot-luck of some excellent informative articles and some inaccurate rubbish. Anyone can edit it if they think they have better information than the writer, or just if they want to alter the information given. What an opportunity to purvey false or misleading or biassed information! An encyclopedia to be used with caution indeed. Julia |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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It is a good encyclopedia. I use it a lot to clarify things I already know a bit about. But even common knowledge can be distorted on wikipedia, as you can read in this article, where major UK newspapers published false material in an obituary because it was contained in a wikipedia bio http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/10/03/wikipedia_obituary_cut_and_paste/ |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Incidentally, sorry to wander off-topic so much. Well, it's not really off-topic, as the things that have been said about my work by the wikipedia editors have hurt me badly, from time to time. And every trace of our achievements have been erased from the Sarcoidosis and Vitamin D pages, in each case by an autocratic editor, or 'socks' thereof... Anyway, let's get focus back onto MP-biology-related issues |
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Joyful Board Staff
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Dr. Marshall, Your good-natured response to these injuries to getting out such a liberating message for the healing of the chronically ill is the greatest proof of all that this science works. That is, the changes you, yourself have gone through. It would be natural to respond with anger in frustration at how the petty actions of others have prevented the truth from getting out there. But here we are. Experiencing the validity of your findings first hand. And no one has been able to silence the message! We are imagining a future where doctors can offer help and hope to those who--up to this day--are belittled for their "weight problems" or "mental illness" as if they could somehow just decide to "be well" without treating these underlying infections! I stand with you with great hope that the tide is in fact already turning and many brilliant minds will be applying their efforts to unraveling the mysteries within this new field of understanding. Thank you for standing firm and pressing on in the face of critics, naysayers, and "socks." ~Joyful~ |
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benk Member in Phase 3 
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It should be pointed out that Wikipedia's conception of "truth" was exposed by the TV comedian Steven Colbert early this year. (M-F, 8 and 11 PM Commedy Channel, Colbert show.) Colbert announced that he was deeply distressed that a certain animal species (elephants, I think) was at the verge of extintion in a certain part of Africa, per Wikipedia. He urged his audience to write to Wikipedia asserting that the population of elephants was increasing. He explained to the vieweres that at Wikipedia the truth was what "was generally accepted or believed," as reflected by popular vote. Weeks later, he proudly announced that now the Wikipedia had the elephant population booming, and that therefore he had "rescued a species from extintion." |
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benk Member in Phase 3
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Correction to above: Sowtimes are 8:30 and 11:30 PM |
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Stuart Greene Member 
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In terms of obesity, I just came across an intersting paper which can be found at: http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/reprint/01-0584fjev1 "1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates human adipocyte metabolism via nongenomic action" It shows that suppression of renal 1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 leads to increased lipolysis, inhibited lipogenesis and reduced obesity (at least in mice). So here's another link in the chain connecting vitamin D receptor activity to metabolism and issues of weight and obesity. It's really clear that VDR resarch is the biological "motherload" for many of the most pressing health challenges. Concerning the Gordon video, it's wonderful stuff! I am fond of saying that the immune system really doesn't exist. It's not that we don't have an array of wonderful and amazing systems for innate and acquired protection, it's just that no living thing on Earth is truly immune from its neighbors. What we're all trying to do is maintain our biological integrity in the face of a world teeming with countless other living things that are trying to do the same. In fact, this absence of "immunity" per se is one of the greatest non-Darwinian drivers of evolution - through the lateral transfer of genetic experience from one organism to another. Part of this happens through the development of the types of comensal relationships described in this wonderful video...and part happens through the incorporation of independently evolved genetic experience into our own cells. Most biologists, for example, now accept that our mitochondria are the devolved and streamlined remnants of the earliest oxygen breathing bacteria that appeared after the Earth's "oxygen catastrophe" about 1.6 billion years ago. Lynn Margulis and Dorian Sagan write wonderfully about this type of lateral genetic exchange. My own work hypothesizes that there is actually a third and even more subtle type of biological transfer of acquired experience in addition to comensal symbiosis and lateral genetic integration and it relates directly to the underlying stability of the interior mammalian ecosystem, including what takes place in the gut. I'll write more if anyone is interested. I have a little more about this at http://immunecology.wordpress.com/2007/03/10/immunity-ecology-immunecology/ but I don't yet have a post up about ambimorphic pleomorphism and provolution - the really cool and interesting stuff I'm working on. |
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tickbite Member in Phase 2/3
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Nice little blog Stuart. By all means, expound! |
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Frans Member in Phase 2
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Stuart Greene wrote: "1α,25-Dihydroxyvitamin D3 modulates human adipocyte metabolism via nongenomic action" To summarize: higher 1,25D leads to obesity via non-genomic action ? Perhaps this is not entirely true? If 1,25D is high enough to bind other receptors implicated in lipid metabolism (like the PPAR's), shutting them off, it still is genomic action I would think ? Sincerely, Frans PS Someone send them the DVD with Trevor's presentation at the FDA and point out the similarities in affinities for these particular receptors of 1,25D and prednisone? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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All the key actions of Vitamin D are genomic (i.e. due to transcription and transrepression of genes by the VDR). There are some non-genomic actions, but these researchers are not smart enough to have figured them out. Here is what I wrote about "non-genomic actions" in a recent paper I put together:Historically, Vitamin D has been associated solely with bone formation and calcemia, yet physicians are now being told that Vitamin D closely regulates genes associated with diseases ranging from cancers to multiple sclerosis. In reaction, some have seized upon a putative “non-genomic” activity of Vitamin-D, visualizing “non-genomic” vs. “genomic” actions, “physicians” vs. “biologists,” “practical” vs. “theoretical” - a subconscious rejection of molecular discovery...The calcium flux itself is a function of proteins which are produced by VDR genomic actions. But heck, this is a 2001 paper, let's cut them a little slack for not being totally up-to-date with 2007 science |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3 
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Hi, I saw a cool colour chart recently that showed how obesity in the USA was not homogenously distributed, but rather much more prevalent in certain areas, with some real 'hotspots'. There is an Indian scientist who has been championing the idea of an 'obesity virus' for many years. Here is some links to the subject: http://www.accessexcellence.org/WN/SUA09/obesity497.html http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6956543.stm |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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But UK experts said the idea of obesity as an infectious illness was unlikely Sigh. So much for the insightful reporting of today's Beeb... You might also like to review Reuters item this week: http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSN2264401920071022 "An estimated two-thirds of Americans are overweight and a third of these are obese" Let's see: 2/3 x 1/3 = ??? far too hard to work out... sigh... where's the calculator... 22% |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Ah yes, doublespeak. We invented it of course. Used with particular relish on all health issues it seems. For my part, I am starting MP on Nov 1 and am hoping to gain weight. I've always been as thin as a rake even though I eat like a horse (make that 2). I guess I have a lot og hungry bugs to kill! |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?n=81096&m=1NIEN05&c=mkljauldriplthi Folic acid article here - feeding pathogens and increasing cancer risk! |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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http://www.nutraingredients.com/news/ng.asp?n=81242&m=1NIEN09&c=mkljauldriplthi And some bacteria make you age! This one is entitled 'live longer with vitamin D' - of course only 25VitD was measured, and although it was reported that telomeres on chromosomes (aging marker) were shortened due to inflammation, they didn't consider the possibility that Vitamin D supplementation might increase inflammation in some individuals instead of reducing it! |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Yes indeed, Nick. The key thing here is whether the Th1 bacteria infect stem cells. Emil Wirostko was convinced that they did, but he died before he could publish his results (I was told about it by his colleagues). You see, we know that stem cells themselves are present in the body until death, but that they lose their ability to repair, and heal, tissue as the body ages. So the question is - do they lose the healing ability more quickly because of the increasing load of Th1 pathogens that everybody accumulates during life? At the recent conference on Aging at UCSD I heard a presentation by a German group who had been studying the use of a patient's own stem cells to repair heart tissue after a heart attack. They found that people who had suffered a myocardial infarction (which I believe is related to Th1 infection) possessed stem cells which were only about half as good at repairing the heart tissue as stem cells transplanted from healthy 20 year-old males. Not a surprise to me. A big surprise for the researchers... |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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I have been continually impressed by how the theory/science behind the MP explains so much of the research outcomes reported--outcomes that leave the researchers scratching their heads. And reading magazine articles are becoming a matter of scary science fiction. In one woman's magazine I was reading a review of my dermatologists can do now to help people suffering with skin conditions and learned that some are using low dosed antibiotics for roscea (sp) and that gave me a fright, given the potential for cardiac issues. On the next page the article mentioned using steroids for psoraisis (an old treatment). So on the one hand, they are potentially reducing the bacterial load and the other they are increasing it. What do they do for folk who have both roscea and psoraisis? Then, there's the recent article in Newsweek about food allergies. Apparently, we're too clean; not allowing our bodies to fight enough bacteria, enough viruses. I couldn't even read the article; it scared me. Claire |
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scooker48 Member in Phase 3
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I continue to be amazed at what I read on this study site. It has allowed me to make sense of the world far more than any college degrees or other research in which I have participated. Someday the truth of this site will come to the surface; truth always has a way of coming through. Press on... Sherry |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Infected stem cells! - that puts the cat among the pigeons with all the work going on around the world with them just now!! Do you think the MP targets them too, and so ultimately improves overall healing ability? I take it you are familiar with the trophoblastic theory of cancer? http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/510222 Basically the theory assumes deranged localised steroid signaling due to various insults, followed by stem cells (germ cells) moving in to repair the damage. It implies that it is the invasive properties of the stem cells themselves that then lead to cancer, but if the stem cells are already infected with CWD bacteria, then maybe that is where the impetus to cancer formation comes from? I see a lot of synergy with your work here! http://tinyurl.com/2zs4mf |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Nick, I suspect that the real answer is much simpler than the theories of the past have suggested. We know that when the Th1 bacteria knock out the VDR they knock out transcription of the Metastasis Suppression Protein MTSS1. That has got to be somewhat important There are many other genes (between 1000-27000 of them) for whose expression the VDR is responsible.Yesterday I noticed a paper where researchers had sussed out a mechanism whereby the human genome was capable of making an enzyme which altered the body's own DNA. This must also be a pathway for enzymes produced by pathogens to mutate the human DNA as well. Take a look at http://www.sflorg.com/comm_center/unv_science/p161_31.html |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Yes that certainly opens up a whole new epigenetic can of worms beyond the well known methylation and histone acetylation! I guess that a really important question now is why some people with heavily compromised VDR’s (like the MP cohort) are obviously relatively cancer resistant, whereas others develop cancer without any prior overt TH1 disease being observed. BTW any chance from structural analysis that hCG could bind to the VDR and affect it directly? |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Nick, Th1 disease is rampant in the population. Everybody has the pathogens to a greater or lesser extent, but many only start to suffer damage from them as the grow older. You can see this in a chart of population 25-D levels vs age, which starts to drop at age 40 and continues to do so. The first diagnosable incident for many males is a heart attack, others a stroke. It is generally accepted now that cancers start from inflammation, but only we are able to point the finger at Th1 inflammation, I think. Remember that excess cancer mortality has been reported (at least) in Sarcoidosis and Rheumatoid Arthritis. I think the relatively low incidence in our cohort, and the total lack of aggressive metastasis, indicates that the VDR is key, and activating it with Benicar makes all the difference... After all, the Th1 pathogens largely shut it down, even in asymptomatic individuals. As Stella pointed out yesterday, the neolithic Iceman, which was found embedded in ice in the Alps about a decade ago, is though to have suffered from Ateriosclerosis, a stroke and Arthritis. The Th1 pathogens are not new to the human experience, what is new are the lifestyle changes we made in the 20th century... Last edited on Mon Nov 12th, 2007 21:25 by Dr Trevor Marshall |
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Frans Member in Phase 2
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Trevor, I was wondering. Don't stem cells have their own protection system? Receptors and the like? That would lead me to think that perhaps this system is also compromized by a non-functional VDR/innate immune system, which, in turn, would lead to a cleaning up of infected stem cells by restoring innate immunity/VDR function with the MP? Leaving only non-infected stem cells alive after doing MP? Sincerely, Frans |
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benk Member in Phase 3
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Pehaps not relevant to the MP but worthy of note is a report about "the cascade of cellular events behind some potentially dangerous autoinflammatory diseases" ..."co-workers describe how two proteins called PSTPIP1 and pyrin interact to cause autoinflammatory diseases" of allegedly genetic origin http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071112172122.htm |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Benk, I will be chairing the special session on "VDR, Vit D, and Immune Disease" that the Foundation is sponsoring at the 2008 International Congress on Autoimmunity in Portugal. Dr Greg Blaney will also be speaking. I expect we will shatter the myths and misconceptions about autoimmune disease pathogenesis which are bandied about so prolifically by researchers who don't even know enough about their subject to comprehend the depth of their own lack of understanding |
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tickbite Member in Phase 2/3
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http://www.nigms.nih.gov/News/Results/102507.htm Scientists Unveil Structure of Molecular Target of Many Drugs (GPCR) And i'll be darned, first article i've ever seen talking about CWD (they say intracellular). This one is a good read. Rogue Bacteria Involved In Both Heart Disease And Infertility |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Very cool article. So 'trophoblasts behave very much like macrophages'. The plot thickens. The link to TH1 and cancer initiation is strengthening. |
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Lilly Member in Phase 2/3 
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This link reports a study whereby subjects, obese and normal, ate fast food meals laden with fat and sugar. Obese showed oxicative stress and inflammation much longer after the meal than normals. It infers that fast food meals are bad for the obese but not so bad for normals . But it has too many different foods to show exactly what is the culprit. I suspect the sugar in the coke and pie.Anyway, maybe some research is getting closer to acknowledging the inflammation factor in illness, especially obesity. And this supports the lo-carb eating recommendations of the MP. http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071228/hl_nm/meals_obese_dc_1 |
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Foundation Staff .
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Lilly, your post has been moved to this thread and given a 'priority bump' to move it to the top of the list so interested members will see it. |
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vwitcher Member in Phase 2/3
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While looking at Lilly's link about fast food-induced inflammation, I happened upon this one about germ "gangs" and resistant bacteria. Very interesting stuff...it was just posted today. I can't figure out how to insert the link, but it is at the bottom of the "fast food story" link under "health news": Doctors Target Germs' Ability to Cluster". Would love to see Moderators' take on their findings. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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vwitcher, The error in the way these folk are looking at the microbiotia causing chronic illness can be summed up in this one sentence from that article http://tinyurl.com/yp6jy9 Hence the quest to disarm germs. Scientists are trying to disable "virulence factors," molecules that help germs worm their way into the body,But the germs are already inside the body. They are part of the human existence. The only thing that changes is the balance between species. This is a terrible mistake that Medicine is making... Take a look at the new paper on Lysobacter and Cystic Fibrosis in a thread on Cystic Fibrosis: http://www.marshallprotocol.com/forum39/10971.html Last edited on Tue Jan 1st, 2008 08:14 by Dr Trevor Marshall |
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shandym Member 
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I know I'm not too good at the "scientific" stuff, but I watch the biggest loser ad these people are very obese. If it was bacteria that causes them to be fat, than why when changing thier diet and excersing they are healthy again and all the High BP gone, High Choleterol Gone, Diabetes gone, thyroid problems gone..and all te other "TH1" syndromes just by diet and execrcise. So is bacteria really at the root of ALL disease? Thats just too easy isn't it...or is my TH1 brain just not working properly, I suppose that is what I'll be told Shandy |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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than why when changing thier diet and excersing they are healthy again and all the High BP gone, High Choleterol Gone, Diabetes gone, thyroid problems gone This is pure fiction, Shandy. The studies actually show that diet and exercise show no benefit in obesity or disease. As you say, understanding medical journals is not for the uninitiated. It is so easy to get the incorrect impression from all those long words... Anyway, there is a section in our new paper which cites those lifestyle-intervention studies, and describes the pathogenesis in more detail. Coming soon to a computer near you... See also Understanding Scientific Studies |
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shandym Member
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I will read that when it hits!! Thank you for the reply I was just curious becaus Iam HUGE fan of the "biggest Loser" I dont know if you have ever watched it, but basically it is a show where very obese peolple go to a camp, Excerise llike CRAZY everyday and have MAJOR lifestlye changes'diet etc. Anyway, they Lose TONS of weight and are monitored through the whole process by doctors and they always at the beginning he show tell you what is going on in their obese bodies and it's never good, some have fatty liver, High BP, High choleterol, Diabetes ETC. and at the end of the show when they lose all the weight from hours of training and diet changes, all thier Ailments are tested and are presumed to be healed by this lifestyle change. They really do lose hundreds of pounds and go on to be "healthy". Why is it then that these people lose So much weight just by excersice and diet change? Shandy |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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I would have no idea what effect the crash dieting would have on disease. I can tell you that Mario Lanza died at age 38 in a weight-loss clinic, during a crash weight-loss attempt (a blood clot moved from his leg to his heart). Doctors were supervising that program, too... It all comes down to what the doctors diagnose, and the metrics they use in that diagnosis. And Shandy, you have already accumulated plenty of experience with how effective the metrics used by your own physicians have been, haven't you? |
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Freddie Ash Member in Phase 3 
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HI SANDY & DR MARSHALL This is Fred in WV. My 2 cents worth on this subject, but a study not too long ago came out about how exercised helped heart disease & diabetics. They took blood before they exercised and after they exercised and found that the inflammation was lower after they exercised. So by exercising lowers the inflammation and that in turn helps with all the TH1 diseases when we reduce the inflammation in our bodies. We have been told and even books written on how the inflammation kills us. Also they reduced the inflammation with the diet by not eating sugars and ect. Just my though on this type of thing. Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us. Your friend in Sarcoidosis Freddei |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Freddie, it is not so easy as measuring inflammation. You can suppress the inflammation by merely giving the people milk to drink as they are exercising. The Vitamin D in the milk is enough of a steroid to suppress the immune system. When talking about chronic disease, like obesity and 'autoimmune' diseases, one cannot do a simple "before" and "after" measurement. One also has to measure "after 1 week," "after 1 month," "after 1 year," after 1 decade," etc. The failure to do long-term follow-up is why the cause of these chronic diseases has eluded Medicine (up until now). |
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Caitiegirl Member in Phase 2
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I think the new direction among some of the diet/exercise gurus is that too much exercise has been shown to increase inflammation. Perricone's new book describes this. Of course this is also the man who tells us to eat salmon for breakfast. Something I allowed my daughter to do because it was so highly touted by so many in the medical professsion. Looking back this was the beginning of so many of our problems. Add in a few (not even every day) vitamin supplements and we're having 5 or 6 seizures an hour. I can personally say that I am relieved to be off the diet/exercise guru merry-go-round. And as for the Biggest Loser- I think the way the show works is that if you don't lose weight you are eliminated from the competition. Kind of skews the data toward those with fewer health and inflammation issues. Just my opinion. Mindy |
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shandym Member
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Hi Mindy I'm so sorry to hear of your daughters illness. She is very young to be going through such a tough time...I wish you and you family the best! Dr. Marshall. I don't think while those patients were excersicing they were given milk, I think water would be more appropriate. But if milk was given...that is a pretty strange workout hydrator! Hi Freddie! I have heard about that too, excerise being good for inflamation....who knows right! As for the Biggest Loser and the people who get kicked off the show. Alot of times they are eliminated for losing TOO much weight and are voted off because of competitive reasons, also even if it were because they were not losing weight at the end of the show they do an update with the person who was voted off, and EVERY time they have lost the weight and are living a healthy lifestyle. I think there may have been one contestant that only lost about 60 lbs, but even that is a lot. I just don't see how bacteria can be the cause of each situation. I see how sick and obese these contestants are when they start, and then for 3 months I watch them lose tons of weight and become healthy. It is actually very inspiring to watch. I think in some cases, some people just eat way too much, become inactive and "Gain Weight". The weight it seems is what starts the High Bp and other ailments and once the weight is off, those ailmenst do not exsist anymore. I know in my case I have always been tiny.My highest weight before pregnancy was 135lbs, and my norm was 100 to 120. Around the time I became pregnant I started eating really badly and I gained about 15lbs. This was my highest at 135. When I became pregnant I gained 60 pounds and was very big. When I gave birth I lost 30 pounds IMMEDIATLEY. But, unfortunatley I became ill and was unable to excercise and gained it back. So I know if I was healthy after giving birth, I would have lost the weight and then some and kept it off just by eating a healthy diet and excersice. Thats what I always did and it kept me healthy until I became pregnant. My dad never had high BP or diabetes until he gained a lot of weight. I see that in his case. My dad lost some weight and the BP went down with it. Then he gained it all back then some and here comes the High BP again. The diabetes has stayed because I guess on my dads side most have it. Anyway, this is my non-scientific opinion. Shandy Last edited on Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 21:42 by shandym |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Shandy, Anorexia Nervose is a Th1 disease. We have discussed that before (do a search of this forum, or the 2002-2004 SarcInfo forum). Indeed, one of my early papers discussed infertility in an Anorexic which we treated effectively (the infertility) with GnRH infusion in the early 1980s. http://autoimmunityresearch.org/transcripts/Keogh_Ovulation_Induction.pdf The Th1 pathogens both cause obesity, and they cause anorexia. In short, they make the body unable to find a healthy weight. That is exactly what I explained in my paper (which will be print-published late this month). There is a lot more to human biology than one can observe with an untrained eye, or read about in the popular press, or on TV |
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Freddie Ash Member in Phase 3
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HI DR MARSHALL & SANDY This is Fred in WV. I should have added to my above post about the ways of lowering the inflammation in our bodies. We must remember that these different ways that lowers the inflammation is only a bandaid for the problem, if we do not kill the bactiera that causes the inflammation it will only come back. That is what I tell people with these TH1 disease, like in my case we put in a pacemaker and had bypasses done but that was not the cause of the problem so they were only bandaids for the problems that I had. But with the Marshall Protocol it goes beond just the bandaid, it kills the bactiera that caused it in the first place. I tell people that is the difference in the Marshall Protocol and all the other things that they can have done. Remember, we are all in this together and I am pulling for us. Your friend in Sarcoidosis Freddie |
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vwitcher Member in Phase 2/3
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Absolutely right, Freddie. It amazes me that every doctor I talk to speaks about inflammation as though it were a disease in itself, something to be removed. In fact, it is only a symptom...it is our body's attempt to heal itself, just as a fever is. As I understand it, inflammation is actually our friend; but chronic inflammation (the result of ongoing and untreated disease) will eventually harm the body instead of healing it. Therefore, the object of the game is to heal the ongoing disease (fix the hole in the wall) instead of fooling the body into thinking there's no inflammation (painting over the hole in the wall); and the MP heals the disease instead of covering it up with steroids, etc. Am I correct? "Question everything. Truth will prevail." |
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Jimbbb Member 
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Vw, About this quote from your reply:
I think a better analogy would be one of putting a pretty picture of a still life bowl of fruit over the hole in the wall.  (is a lot easier than fixing the hole so that's why people do it (palliation instead of fix the problem). |
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vwitcher Member in Phase 2/3
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Absolutely right, Jim. We've all done it, haven't we (in our home AND in our body). |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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http://www.newscientist.com/channel/health/dn13789-blood-pressure-drug-could-help-you-slim.html?feedId=online-news_rss20 Here it is in black and white! |
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Martin78 Member in Phase 1 
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Hi Nick I am confused; are you refering to Benicar? I thought benicar was an ARB blocker, not an ACE inhabitor... What am I missing? Thanks BR Martin |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Martin, By inference only. The purpose of both ACE inhibitors and Angiotensin receptor blockers like Benicar are to limit the effects of Angiotensin II on blood pressure. What is unexpected until this report anyway is that there would be an effect on fat metabolism also. |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Martin/Nick: Here is the study to look at: "Suppression of PPAR transactivation switches cell fate of bone marrow stem cells from adipocytes into osteoblasts" http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17656564 So. Based on inflmmatory cytokines, or one of the Nuclear Receptors hit by both the statins and the ARBs, stem cells either strengthen bone, or add to fat. Hmm... I think that is pretty profound, somehow.... |
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Martin78 Member in Phase 1
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Hmmm After reading the abstract I recognize the PPAR Gamma from the BIO21 presentation, but think I will stick to my macro economics for the time being. Maybee later this summer (when my examn period is over) I'll try to get up to a level of understanding that I can actually participate in these discussions... but for now I think my mind is content But thanks for answering the both of you. BR Martin |
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Ruth Goold Health Professional
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More info on these pathways and lipid metabolism (at least in mice) in an on-line publication in PNAS: Mice lacking angiotensin-converting enzyme have increased energy expenditure, with reduced fat mass and improved glucose clearance. by: Jayasooriya et al. Abstract available at: http://www.pnas.org/cgi/content/abstract/0802690105v1 Ruth |
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tickbite Member in Phase 2/3
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Ruth, I'm wondering if you might perhaps brainstorm why my metabolism is so high. I can eat like a horse for weeks straight and not gain an ounce. If I don't eat however, I tend to lose weight. I'm 6'2" and ~155 lbs dry. thanks! |
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Ames Board Staff
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Hi Greg, I am also very thin. I wrote a Newsflash on Bacteriality that goes into greater detail about the paper Dr. Marshall just introduced a few posts above this one. The paper offers the best explanation I have yet heard about why some of us lose weight when we get infected with the Th1 pathogens. Here's the link: http://bacteriality.com/news/#cyto Best, Amy |
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shandym Member
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Does the same thing apply for people who "gain" weight during illness? I have always been thin, but since becoming ill I have put on a lot of weight and cannot take it off even when I barely eat. I always though being as ill as I am that I would be "thin" or even thinner than I always have been.....Instead I am 50 pounds over weight now. I hate it. Last edited on Wed Apr 30th, 2008 20:23 by shandym |
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tickbite Member in Phase 2/3
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I believe that is a yes. However, as Amy quoted Trevor about the level of uncertainty at the moment it isn't near the point of being understood. I'm sure some people are able to stabilize weight or weight loss with the use of Benicar, but others may not. Amy, Thanks for the link skinny girl! Provides some insight for sure. I guess I will continue with my mega huge calorie diet, knowing that some day i'll actually gain some weight and have to watch it I think that situation will be better anyway because it seems that when I don't eat enough food I feel drained. I'd rather not have to continually eat like a cow and actually have fuel reserves. |
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bealunn Member in Phase 3
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Two interesting articles on the BBC Health pages recently. Both relating to research into obesity and both linking this to inflamation and the immune system. Obesity ‘lifts inflammation risk’ New twist in brain obesity riddle |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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I love these studies (NOT) that keep making one symptom be the cause of another symptom. Obesity causes blah, blah, blah, just like low Vit D causes blah, blah, blah. My response to these "scientists": yada, yada, yada. Claire Last edited on Fri Oct 24th, 2008 08:48 by eClaire |
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Karon Member in Phase 3 
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Thank you Claire you made my morning......long time and alot happening with no talk....I'm sorry. I had a lot of BLAH BLAH YADA YADA to sift through. How are you besides my morning light today? missing you today Love to you Dear Claire Karon |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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I'm glad you got a laugh. When you read the science news, if you're not laughing, you're bound to be crying most of the time. I picked this quotation up from the Lifestyles quotation thread and have it in my personal emails: "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on." Winston Churchill It seems when it comes to medical research, the truth can be staring folk right in the face and they make a big production of the detour they are taking instead. Least wise, they ought to be able to see that they are just making a bunch of hooey over a detour. Claire |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Beatrice, have you had a chance to have a look at the videos of the Porto presentations? I think they will help you understand where our MP science is at the moment. I have just got back from a conference on "Beneficial Microbes." I think you will be amazed to see the way that our microbial load changes the entire way that our body operates. The NIH estimates that only 10% of the cells in our body are human cells, and 90% are bacterial. Look here: http://nihroadmap.nih.gov/hmp/ The keynote presentation at the microbes conference was Jeremy Nicholson, head of Biological Chemistry at Imperial College, London. He reminded us all that pharmaceutical drugs work differently in different populations, and that various populations are indeed made different by the microbiota they carry. He believes that drugs tested in India and Romania are going to work quite differently when they are used in the US, UK and Western Europe. He believes this will spell disaster for Medicine, as we know it. All the work of tens of thousands of scientists, and hundreds of clinical trials, will be defeated by something nobody has noticed until now - the bugs we all carry around with us. Here is one of his slides:  This plots the urine metabolome of three nationalities, a snapshot of how all the bacterial metabolite products, they which excrete in their urine, maps onto a display space. About 50 of these Japanese subjects moved to the USA, and they assumed the USA metabolome, you can see a few inside the mass of US subject data. The whole world is changing, and much faster than anybody expected.... ..Trevor.. |
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kenc Member in Phase 3 
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Dr. Trevor Marshall, What is the meaning of position on the display space in Jeremy Nicholson's slide? That is, how are the x and y axes defined? Ken |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20026855.500-bug-genes-are-the-key-to-human-digestion.html The authors seem to think that there is a need for some bacteria in the gut for optimal digestion, but what caught my eye was the differences they found between lean and obese people's gut bacteria. |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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I found this interesting b/c my brother and I came from a long line of slender (even thin) people and yet he was fat all his life and I struggled, and lost a few times (especially when I became disabled) from becoming fat. I seemed to share similar characteristics in regard to body type of my cousins and yet they and my parents could eat all they wanted and never have to worry about the weight. I obviously had the bacteria that was fond of carbohydrates.' So we either inherited recessive genes or took on a lot of bacteria associated with obesity. Claire |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Nick, I should be putting my presentation(s) in China online sometime in the next week. Take a look at the slide illustrating how some gut-bacterial species can affect disease-related genes |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Dr. Marshall- PLEAZZZEE reassure all Th1 patients that Benicar is still the root answer to all this bacterial evil..... TB p.s. Would seem changes in biology are not all that disimilar to wrenching changes in physics!!! From Feynman point particle theory to M-theory and non-euclidiean multi-dimensional space being unified by CMB data sets and the dodecahedron spacial measurements of NASA's WMAP satellite, incredible! Have physics, chemistry and biology begun to converged at all levels??? Last edited on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:00 by TikBitten |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Reactivating the VDR is the way to defeat the Th1 microbiota, as it persists by blocking VDR gene transcription. At the moment we use Benicar to reactivate the VDR and start transcribing the protective genes. |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Please bear with me... How are Th1 microbiota differentiated from the trillions of harmless metagenomic gut microbes found in healthy individuals? Anything to do with Gram-negative vs Gram-postitive classification or is that history too?? But according to the graph above, of course, healthy indviduals must now be sub-classified by region as well... NYC metro area, TB Last edited on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 12:17 by TikBitten |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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TikBitten wrote: How are Th1 microbiota differentiated from the trillions of harmless metagenomic gut microbes found in healthy individuals? Are you sure those gut-microbes are harmless? My presentations dealt specifically with that issue. Video should be online within a few days. |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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One more thought- I was actually referring to Dr. Gordon's Nirvana (idealistic) state of beneficial gut microbial balance that yields optimal energy and nutritional benefits-- or is this another 20th century marketing micro-biochemical illusion too?? TB |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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The question is not only whether certain families of microbes can improve our absorption of gut nutrients, but whether there are any harmful effects from that symbiosis. Jeff's group is still some distance from pondering that question. I ponder it on slide 6 (or is it 5) of my China presentations |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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Looking forward to it... |
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TikBitten Member in Phase 3
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BTW- What are the latest options for prescription (or non-prescription) sleep aids?? TB Last edited on Fri Dec 19th, 2008 13:27 by TikBitten |
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goobygirl Member in Phase 3
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I also question whether one of the reasons people gain weight is the type of food they eat, particularly, cooked v. raw. I forayed into raw food eating this fall and lost 7 lbs in 5 weeks, and took another 2 off since then simply by making two meals all raw. I wasn't fat to begin with, was in the middle of height and weight charts, and didn't exercise other than the walking I normally do in a day. I was a vegetarian to begin with and had a diet most Americans never came close to as far as nutrients, IMO. To me, it makes sense. No other "animal" cooks or heats its food. It seems to me that the body can more easily recognize, digest, and assimilate food that hasn't been messed with. The zebra eats its food as it finds it, as does the lion. The zebra doesn't steam his grass and the lion doesn't grill its zebra meat. I'm keeping raw in my diet, I feel better on it, and it works for me. Last edited on Sun Dec 21st, 2008 04:08 by goobygirl |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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I was having thoughts about the role of bacteria in raw and cooked foods. Common wisdom is that if foods are cooked, then they are safer. Of course, we're learning that is not necessarily the case. I'm wondering if cooked foods might not help break down bacteria into CWD bacteria as well. When I had an out of control natural herx for 8 months 15 years ago, I went on a diet that was almost identical to the MP diet, however, most of it was raw. I've begun to wonder if that might not have contributed to my feeling better as well. Claire |
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goobygirl Member in Phase 3
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Claire, I just think from a "common sense" viewpoint, why do humans have to cook their food? Why do they eat things that they have to cook first to digest (I can't see me running down a chicken, biting its head off, and eating it). Of course this is a wildly debated topic in many circles, but I'm on the side of if it's edible and attainable in its natural state, then it seems like "common sense" says that you can/should eat it. I can only report from my own experience that eating a raw food based diet has seemed to help me. Of course, I could likewise be progressing on the MP. At any rate, it works for me, and I feel nourished. When I eat a primarily cooked diet, I don't feel satiated like I do with raw. I want to eat more and more. Anyhow, that's all I'll post here since I don't want to be clogging up the thread. Perhaps it would be a good discussion on the MP Lifestyles site. Last edited on Sun Dec 21st, 2008 06:33 by goobygirl |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16467-bugs-and-tongues-reveal-human-march-across-pacific.html?DCMP=OTC-rss&nsref=online-news This article illustrates how different populations gradually develop different microbiota! |
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Aunt Diana Moderator 
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Thank you for this interesting article....for an even more interesting "read"..you must read the comments that follow the article. |
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Joyful Board Staff
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And now, back to near the topic this thread was started on... Could this study linking organic brain dysfunction to anorexia actually highlight the results of another bacterial rampage outside of the gut itself? We know the pathogens are not limited to a single area of the body... Review provides new insights into the causes of anorexia Last edited on Tue Jul 21st, 2009 23:54 by Joyful |
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margozed Member in Phase 3 
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Hi, I just came accross this news item thought it might be interesting, would like to know if this is relevent to the job (debugging) that we are working on just wondering what others thought. Margo http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2009-07/hms-cad072209.php |
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Dr Trevor Marshall Research Team
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Margo, It might be interesting once they move it out of mice and prove it in men |
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NickBowler Member in Phase 3
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Some interesting reading here: http://gordonlab.wustl.edu/GLHome.html http://www.prohealth.com/fibromyalgia/library/showArticle.cfm?libid=14769&B1=EM081209F |
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Rosie Member
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This AP article appeared in our local paper yesterday. Thought you would be interested. http://www.onenewsnow.com/AP/Search/US/Default.aspx?id=735496 Scientists seek origins of obesity in the womb by Malcolm Ritter (Here's an excerpt) "That's the implication of research suggesting that something in an obese woman's womb can program her fetus toward becoming a fat child and adult. It's not about simply passing along genes that promote obesity; it's some sort of still-mysterious signal. The idea has only recently entered conversations between doctors and female patients, and scientists are scrambling to track down a biological explanation. That knowledge, in turn, may provide new ways to block obesity from crossing generations." Last edited on Fri Oct 30th, 2009 20:13 by Rosie |
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eClaire Member in Phase 2
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And so you think they might connect the finding that some bacteria can make you fat? Sometimes I think that many scientists are so mono-focused that they miss stuff (possible explanations) that the rest of us get just reading the papers. |
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